Tesla Faces US Auto Safety Investigation over Door Handles | Hacker News Reader

Tesla Faces US Auto Safety Investigation over Door Handles

bloomberg.com

97 pointscorvad111 comments

I've had a Tesla for several years and am generally pretty happy with it.

I don't think the fancy electronic door handles are an improvement, and am unhappy to see that other brands are following suit.

If there are electronic processes that you want to trigger as the door opens, I think the better solution would be a two-stage handle that initially sends an electrical signal and then engages the mechanical latch if you continue pulling.

From just a convenience perspective having to explain both the interior and exterior doorhandles to anyone riding in your car is a pain, but in the case of an accident, being submerged in water, driver incapacitation, or any other reason you need to exit the car, there should be zero ambiguity of how to do so even if the car has lost power.

Obvious, intuitive, failsafe handles on the inside and outside of car doors should be industry standard.

I was in a tesla for the first time ever about a month ago, for an uber ride. When I tried to exit that is the first thing that went through my mind -- how the hell could I figure out how to open the door in an emergency situation.

There are some dead people who wondered the same thing during the emergency that killed them.

Including Mitch McConnell's sister-in-law

I've got a fancy new car with fancy door handles. Overall, eh. But at least mine are intuitive on the inside ish; you can push yje handle to open (when the car thinks it's safe), or you can pull twice. You have to be told you can push to open, but pull twice happens pretty easily. I don't yet know how the fail safe open works on the outside, grab and pull (pressing the button with the grab) seems to work intuitively enough for people though.

>I think the better solution would be a two-stage handle that initially sends an electrical signal and then engages the mechanical latch if you continue pulling.

I'm pretty sure my 2009 Prius has this feature; it will unlock the doors when I lightly touch the inside of the handle, and then pulling it will engage the door mechanism.

The original Tesla Model S had exactly this. The window-partial-retract happened as you pulled the handle. It was plenty fast, and I doubt it was even that critical to the longevity of the door — getting the window in the right position when closing always seemed more important to me.

> I think the better solution would be a two-stage handle that initially sends an electrical signal and then engages the mechanical latch if you continue pulling.

This is how Mercedes handles work, for what it's worth. A motor pushes them out or retracts them, but they're held in only with a spring, so you can always physically force them out, at which point pulling on them directly pulls on the release lever.

If I were designing these newer style aerodynamic handles, I think it would be done such that the handles default to the open graspable state. Retract them when the car is in motion for aerodynamics (is it really that much of a benefit?) such that when the circuit is de-energized in a crash, the handles return to the default open graspable state.

At least the Tesla handles I’m familiar with are entirely electrical: if you grasp it and pull but the door and whatever ECU operates it is not energized, then nothing happens. There is nothing resembling a mechanical door lock.

My 1994 BMW was like this, you would start to pull the handle and the window would come down a little to release the seal. Then you would pull the rest of the way to pop the latch. You couldn't pull too fast or you would risk damaging the weather seal. It kind of sucked.

My E46 had frameless windows and it was similar, as you pulled the handle it would lower the window slightly, and after closing, it would scooch up a bit.

> It kind of sucked.

Literally or proverbially? Either way it's a great way to weather the problem the fun way.

It was definitely WET fun.

Same with the Minis my mom's been driving for like, 20 years.

Yeap, saw that coming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQxm6n7SdvE

Apparently there is a manual release lever, which this driver did not know about. But really, I think it's a bad design to have to think about a second way to open the door. When people panic, they fall back to training, and that training is just opening the door using the handle they always use.

I was in a total crash of my model 3 in a hit a run. I was pitted from a crazy driver that was driving the wrong way and I ran into a retaining wall. I panicked trying to open the doors as there was smoke everywhere and I think the car was burning but the fog of an accident is pretty intense so I ended up breaking the window out with one of those little tipped seatbelt cutters and crawled out. That stupid override is completely useless when you're in fight or flight.

The Model S did it better where the override is just pulling the door handle all the way out.

How did you have the wherewithal to remember you had this tool? Where did you keep the tool? Did the tool come with the car or did you buy it just in case?

I've always carried one in my cupholder my whole life. It's like a small knife and has a tipped end. Very easy to use.

They're 20$ on amazon. I will admit I tried kicking the window first but then remembered I had the knife.

This is a great reminder to carry one of those.

Thank you for the reminder. I'm glad you're safe.

Thank you! I was coming home from work and it was my birthday so I had a cake in the back of my car and lost it in the crash. The greatest tragedy. lol

OMG - comedy & tragedy, amirite? Sounds like the "paint bucket in the back of the car during crash" risk. <3

Exactly right lol. Splattered cake on me and my windshield.

Worth considering that an accident which would cause you to need such a device is likely to involve enough disturbance to cause a tool sitting in the cupholder to find itself thrown around the vehicle.

Yeah, it's definitely a risk but I intentionally left it in the cup holder to make sure it annoyed me enough daily when I needed to use a cup so that I remembered it existed. There's a fine line and I have a terrible memory especially in a crisis so I figured it's best bouncing around then hidden in some center console or glove box where I can't remember

Mine is on my keychain, which is likely still embedded in the dash after a crash. I guess that's less helpful for those newer vehicles that don't use keys as such.

Not the OP, but I have kept one of these in all of my cars for years. I keep mine in the armrest storage space. I’ve never needed it, but it always gets transferred from old car to new. And every time I get something out of the armrest, it reinforces the location in my mind.

There's no manual release on my model 3 for the rear passenger doors. Only front doors have it.

Yeah, I think the front manual release is fine, but the fact that the rear doesn't have one at all on the model 3 (and the Model Y has it hidden behind a trim piece?) seems like it shouldn't be legal.

Why should that be illegal, given that child safety locks on car doors are allowed? Aren't those equivalent?

Those are an intentional decision, and using them usually means there is an adult that can open the door from the outside if necessary. Which is a problem if the door can't be opened without power from the outside either. So they're not equivalent.

Setting child lock on doors is an intentional decision, once, and then it stays that way until another intentional decision to unset it. If you purchase a car and the child lock was set, you might not notice it was set.

Depending on the configuration of the car, if you end up in the back seat with the door closed and the child lock is set on all rear doors, it can be pretty difficult to get out.

Some Model Ys have them, under a trim piece, in a door pocket. Others have none, so it's a total gamble to get into one.

Kind of related, Teslas (some?) don't have a manual hood release either, so firefighters' first hope is to find the guy who knows what menu on the fucking touch-screen is going to pop the hood. E.g., when making sure that the high voltage stuff can be disabled, the car won't try to leave with fire crews in the way, and so on. There are more... destructive ways to get in, and it will happen, but they could have just installed a pull cable like everyone else.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-A7A60DC...

Not on my 2019 model 3.

There also was Mitch Mcconnell's sister in law, shipping billionaire Angela Chao, who drunkenly drove into a pond on her property and couldn't get out of her Tesla. Interestingly, her own sister was the Head of the Department of Transportation when the model she died in was approved.

https://www.wsj.com/real-estate/angela-chao-death-texas-tesl...

> “The night was chilly and very dark, with no moon, so rather than walk, Chao got in her Tesla Model X SUV for the four-minute trip back to the house.

> The account of what happened to Angela Chao that weekend is based on interviews with people close to Chao and her family, county officials who were briefed on what happened or were there, as well as reviews of law-enforcement documents.

> Within minutes of saying her goodbyes, she called one of her friends in a panic. While making a three-point turn, she had put the car in reverse instead of drive, she said. It is a mistake she had made before with the Tesla gearshift. The car had zipped backward, tipping over an embankment and into a pond. It was sinking fast. Could they help her?

> Over the next several hours, her friends, then the ranch manager and his wife, and then paramedics, and firefighters and sheriff’s deputies rushed around and tried to break the windows, find an escape hatch or any way to get Chao out of the car. Somehow an executive who made her living on the sea was drowning in a stock pond within sight of her home.”

> paramedics, and firefighters and sheriff’s deputies rushed around and tried to break the windows, find an escape hatch or any way to get Chao out of the car

A team of firefighters, paramedics, and police officers couldn't find a way to break the windows on an SUV?

No, looking at the timeline, in her wiki article, it seems that they got her out shortly after they arrived. They started resuscitation attempts as soon as they got her out, so I would guess it ran full of water in the time it took ER to arrive.

Woah that's crazy. Killed by two of Musk's dumb decisions.

Pretty sure the "drunkenly drove" part will overcome many a great decision. Maybe these the engineering and design decisions were dumb. However, judging decision quality from a small sample or most salient result does not improve decisions.

https://nautil.us/the-resulting-fallacy-is-ruining-your-deci...

Seems like Musk is just racking up the "related to" immediate kill count, with his involvement in organizations .. that is:

He was involved in the US government and he shut down, his department shut down, the USAID. And that one shut-down is, according to reports I've read ... which I don't have on hand, hundreds of thousands of dead people.

I understand his argument is, in the future .. things will be better. We will be on Mars, safe from asteroids. We will have cars, safe from reckless drivers. We will have immortal brains, safe from natural degradation. We will have an electric economy, avoiding the toxic dependence on oil and gas.

Pulling back -- I wonder if there is a correlation between empowered individuals and deaths, and their whether there is a need (for humanity's sake) for group thinking and decision-making when it comes to situations that could create mass death? (To avoid mass death.)

We have a US president who (and apparently for decades past have had a vulnerable political system, regardless of Trump) is essentially destroying law and order through the unilateral illegal or provably corrupt directions that he's giving, and through his followers (Supreme Court, Congress, Senate, Executive, appointed Agency heads) who align their organizations with his retribution campaign. This is on my mind today.

So in this US presidency I see situation there is a group of people who are making these decisions. This counter-proves my hypothesis.

However, this group are following the leader and, I suppose like in Nazi Germany, where there were tons of people who were following the leadership and the ideology that made the holocaust happen and 6 million people plus dead, they aren't really thinking for themselves, it doesn't seem to me. They aren't thinking as a group. They are following.

Back in the glory days of Mercedes, they proudly advertised how their pull-style door handles were a safety feature intended to make it easier for rescuers to open doors from the outside: http://oudemercedesbrochures.nl/Images/W126/USA_1990/016.jpg

Alas, “build the best car you can” wasn’t compatible with long-term viability. Something engineering-driven companies seem to keep encountering.

The whole brochure is an neat time capsule to browse through: http://oudemercedesbrochures.nl/W126_USA1990.html

When I was in human computer interaction class in the 90s, one self-stated German student was fixated on how German car handles have a ring shape to help with opening car doors in emergencies.

It was kind of shocking because he was just going full zealot, in a class in Oregon United States.

The attitude was really toxic to the class. The student was trying to drum up philosophical support for all or nothing thinking, as I look back. A way to kind of circumvent a more nuanced judgment, which I think the teacher intended to convey as the whole point of the class.

And the teacher did not like it at all, and she kicked him out. It was an educational moment for me, to see clashing philosophies and power all mixed in the same adult circumstance.

> Alas, “build the best car you can” wasn’t compatible with long-term viability. Something engineering-driven companies seem to keep encountering.

Is it actually incompatible with long term viability? Or does it just create an unstable state where the temptation to gut the reputation for immediate profit grows as the size of that profit grows?

It's an interesting question for sure!

Yes, I'd argue it is incompatible, at least for companies dealing with atoms. At some point, the technology lead erodes, "not bad" becomes good enough, and mature businesses are unable to adapt while maintaining engineering at the center. Technology development at the frontier is too irregular to rely on for the long-term.

Okay, granted, but is that applicable on the timescales here?

There has been a very steady march of progress in cars, in safety, efficiency, and comfort since that ad came out. They did lose their tech lead, but I'm not sure it was inevitable in that time frame.

Volvo made a name for itself with safety. Mercedes could have done that. Toyota made a name for itself with hybrid drivetrains. Mercedes could have done that.

They didn't, sure, but your argument seems to hinge on low hanging fruit going away and others catching up. This seems like Mercedes simply opted not to reach for the next piece of fruit.

I would argue that primacy in safety was insufficient: Volvo's consumer division was offloaded to Ford, and then Geely. Saab was even more obsessive about safety to the point of being pathologic, to their downfall, looted by GM for their knowledge of 4-cylinder turbos and engine management (truly ahead of their time) and left to wither on the vine. And it isn't like Mercedes was a laggard with safety, they had a number of firsts to their name and in the US did have a reputation as a safe car, just not an affordable one; safety was a part of the constellation of "the best or nothing", just not the whole thing. What true differences in safety exists between marques now?

I would also argue that efficiency is insufficient, at least in the US. For Toyota, while their hybrid tech is an incredible engineering accomplishment and certainly put them on the radar for many consumers, I don't know that it's the crown jewel; to wit, they started offering their hybrid tech royalty free a few years ago. If you want an efficient car, you can get one from a number of marques, but is there real demand for that?

You're right I think to call out Toyota as a counterexample, but I think it's the Toyota Way that truly distinguished Toyota and continues to do so. That seems to be the only hedge against decay, to bake a lasting, long-termism culture into the organization in day one and ruthlessly enforce it. There's a few other Japanese companies that come to mind that have similar storylines. It needs to be there in the beginning too, TPS isn't a secret, and JV attempts to share the knowledge (NUMMI) didn't seem to make a lasting impact without the culture to enforce it long-term.

I actually got stuck in my parent's Tesla with them in the car on a really hot day. The car battery died and so we were stuck in the car because it was bricked. I understand there are mechanical latches to open the doors in that case, but I didn't know that at the time. In the heat of the moment and the panic, it was really hard to figure that out. We ended up contacting Tesla service, but I can imagine it would have been even more terrifying and risky if we were outside cell service. It's just poor design.

I'm usually skeptical of negative headlines about Tesla as there have been so many false positives, but this one is absolutely nuts. That design seems appropriate for a piece of industrial equipment that requires training to operate, not a passenger vehicle that people just jump into without any familiarity. I'm pretty sure I would die before figuring out how to open that back door in an emergency.

> I'm usually skeptical of negative headlines about Tesla as there have been so many false positives

I'm a bit lost in that ...

It's weird to me how many things I find flagrantly dangerous, "experts" find acceptable and vice-versa. Whether it be design, or policy.

You would expect to be aligned with experts? Wouldn't that make you an expert, by definition?

> You would expect to be aligned with experts? Wouldn't that make you an expert, by definition?

No. Ibelieve lots of things experts believe, often because they believe them, in fields where I have no expertise.

I've learned to take anything said by the experts with a grain of salt nowadays, mainly after seeing the large conflicts of interest in the food and drug industry. It's best to do your own research as well if you can.

That being said, there are certain institutions and experts that I've found are more trustworthy than others (The Electronic Frontier Foundation for example) so I do usually trust them over the opinions of others. Basically there is a lot of nuance, never blindly trust anything.

Regarding the topic of the Tesla door handles, I've always felt uneasy regarding the safety of them.

That might just be media experts. Newspapers and TV channels keep have a stock list of "experts" they bring on to talk about stuff and they almost always know nothing or are only there for a particular spin.

You can always find washed up academics, ex-industry, ex-government, etc people who will reliably show up to say stuff in return for money. Lawyers do it too.

"move fast and break things." - The Experts.

http://archive.today/r5Q6O

Remember to have all your passengers read your car manual before riding with you, so they know how to manually open the door when you wreck and catch fire.

Insanity.

Make sure the rescue (normaly fire) department reads it too.

Maybe the cars can come with a pre-recorded safety briefing that is played before you can set off, and a laminated card in the seat pocket. How to open the doors in an emergency, etc. Like on an airplane.

Reminds me of the problematic switch to electronic gear selectors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Yelchin#Lawsuit_and_reca...

As a new Tesla model Y owner I'm very happy with the car.

But I agree that this is madness!

I'm not too concerned with opening from the outside, but opening from the inside has to be a simple thing that works in all situations, even for first time passengers!

A good reason to care about accessing the car from the outside with and without power is if say you left your dog or child in it with 'dog mode' running and it stops for whatever reason.

It'd be nice if you or any passerby could easily open the door without any thought don't you think?

In that specific situation, yes.

But it would also make car breakins trivially easy, and I don't think people would accept that tradeoff.

Retractable door handles are the same disease that caused touch screens in infotainment consoles infecting the rest of the car.

There's really no way to get into the vehicle from the outside if the battery is dead? I find that hard to believe...

...okay, looks like there is a way but it's really convoluted and you need to basically jump-start the low voltage system (using either an ICE car or a battery pack). https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-3567D5F... That's really, really dumb.

It's particularly telling that Tesla's design flaws are so inexcusable that people have a hard time even believing they are real.

Here's another example: https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-A7A60DC...

Yes, opening the rear door in some models requires popping an unlabeled access panel in the cargo pocket.

The craziest part to me is that this isn't the evil profit maximizing à la Unsafe at Any Speed. It's simply pure designer insanity.

This is actually their "upgraded" design, the original Model 3 had no rear mechanical release at all. Hidden or otherwise. None.

See the older manual here:

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/2017_2023_model3/en_us/GU...

> Only the front doors are equipped with a manual door release.

How was THAT legal? How was that ADA compliant?

I believe it's legal because rear doors have child safety locks so often can't be opened from the inside anyway. Although that doesn't cover opening it from the outside...

Wild. Door handles have been a solved problem for decades. Why do companies always have to go and fuck something up that's already working?

I guess I'm not surprised that only the vehicles made in China have the tiny concession to put a label on the access panel.

That's the correct entry in the manual: https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-A7A60DC...

That doesn't explain how to open the doors from the outside. The entry I linked does. (Indirectly.)

> okay, looks like there is a way but it's really convoluted and you need to basically jump-start the low voltage system

So what you're actually saying is, there really isn't a (sane) way after all.

Now try doing that while the car is on fire with burning children inside

https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/witness-of-triple-fatal-...

Retractable flush door handles without an obvious, usable, and effective manual override option are one of the most stupid and user hostile "innovations" ever.

Designers effectively said: "Lets save 0.03 on our Coefficient of Drag, add unnecessary weight of extra motors and control complexity, and make sure whenever the 12V supply is cut or a bit of ice is in the mechanism, everyone inside is trapped —— it'll look cool".

China is already looking at banning them [0] because of the difficulty they present to emergency crews trying to rescue passengers.

And while I used to admire Musk and defend him here, this now seems like just another "innovation" by a sociopath who cares only about how cool it might make him look, and nevermind the people burned to death trapped inside his cars. At least the Ford Pinto exploding gas tank debacle was for profit [1], this is just one man's ego.

[0] https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a66052483/china-possible-b...

[1] https://www.autosafety.org/ford-pinto-fuel-tank/

It wasn't even about those things. It was about having cool electronic door handles like a spaceship. If it was about those things that would imply a level of intentionality in the design that goes beyond whatever happened here.

> this is just one man's ego.

Since you're attributing the design of all Tesla features to Musk, would you compliment him on the Tesla Model 3 being reported as the "safest new car on the market," acheiving an overall EuroNCAP score of 359/400?

https://www.whatcar.com/news/the-safest-cars-on-sale-today/n...

... or would that go against the narrative?

FWIW, and for balance - I think the retracting handle design on the Model S is dangerous. I own the car and it's a nagging concern in my mind.

>>would you compliment him on the Tesla Model 3

yes, as I mentioned, I have posted similar strong compliments/defenses of Musk in the past, including on here.

I'd also point out that while one person can drive design of the most salient features (such as a noticeably different door-handle), the entire design of a modern automobile and its systems are obviously not from only one person. I also attribute the overall requirement for high crash-test results to Musk, but this sort of anti-safety feature shows his drive is not for safety, but notoriety.

If I were in your position, I'd also actively practice with family using the alternate handles from inside so it is ingrained in your mind sufficiently to recall in an emergency; I hope no one ever needs it, but...

It's really too bad what he's changed into or shown himself to be; I used to really want to own a Tesla, now I would take or keep a free one.

Ah, so if a Tesla feature is bad it must have been designed by Musk.

And if Tesla does something good it was "obviously not from only one person"

> I have posted similar strong compliments/defenses of Musk in the past, including on here.

As have many people, who curiously seemed to change their treatment of Musk around the time of the 2024 election. Funny, that.

No, I did NOT say the safety features were not due to Musk, I stated clearly I believe he was responsible for that safety initiative, just as I thought him responsible for the door handles, but I doubt he had much input in the detailed design of either, and OBVIOUSLY the design of a whole modern automotive crash safety system is more than the work of one person.

More importantly, the juxtaposition of the two features makes clear his motivation is primarily a collection of features that Musk thinks will make Musk seem cool, which is a very different thing than trying to make the safest cars in all respects to protect his customers.

As for when and why my opinion of Musk changed, again it changed years before 2024, and was cemented when he argued publicly with one of his software engineers and revealed a level of cluelessness showing his previous reputation as some kind of tech genius was a curated sham.

You seem to suggest it is wrong of people to reconsider their opinion of Musk around 2024 when he claims to be a "Free Speech Absolutist" yet used his ownership of the largest social media platform and his massive fortune to actively promote proto-fascists in the US and around the world to convert democracies into racist authoritarian states.

It is not wrong to shun people who work to introduce intolerance into a society — in fact, the only thing that an open tolerant society can not tolerate if it wants to survive is intolerance itself [0]. While I was not one of them, I am perfectly happy to see people changing their opinion of Musk due to his actions around 2024. If you have not, you are not looking closely enough; please do so.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

> proto-fascists in the US and around the world to convert democracies into racist authoritarian states.

I think you've said enough to prove my point.

The only point being demonstrated here is that you fail to see the explicitly authoritarian actions of the parties Musk supports in the US (Republicans), Germany (AfD), Hungary (Fidesz), etc., and do not understand that in democracies the branches of government (legislative, judicial, executive), and the institutions of society (press, academy, finance, industry, sport, religion, social) are all independent. In contrast authoritarians coerce or corrupt these institutions to serve the executive.

If you can't see those authoritarian actions by the parties Musk supports, you are either willfully ignorant or just plain obtuse, or a willing authoritarian proto-fascist.

And no, your point is still wrong; there is nothing wrong with changing ones opinion of a public figure when he comes out supporting authoritarianism

> there is nothing wrong with changing ones opinion of a public figure when he comes out supporting authoritarianism

You can personally like/dislike whoever you like.

But if you personally revile a man, please don't then pretend to have good faith discussions about his technical achievements.

I do not revile him; it is not worth the energy.

I am merely deeply disappointed to discover he was not even close to the person I thought he was, either in technological skill or wanting to actually improve humanity.

His tech skills turn out to be largely taking credit for work of others and marketing himself as a tech 'genius', and it turns out he is more interested in implementing autocracy than in actually creating an abundant future for humanity. Even with all that wealth, he takes the easy way out. Sad, really

> he was not even close to the person I thought he was, either in technological skill or wanting to actually improve humanity.

He was the chief product architect of Tesla's first production vehicle, and he is the chief engineer of SpaceX.

Here's what experts said about him

> "Elon and the Propulsion department are leading development of the SpaceX engines, particularly Raptor. I offer my 2 cents to help from time to time"

-- Tom Mueller, regarded as one of the foremost spacecraft propulsion experts in the world, who owns many patents for propulsion technologies.

> "Elon is brilliant. He’s involved in just about everything. He understands everything. If he asks you a question, you learn very quickly not to go give him a gut reaction.

> "He wants answers that get down to the fundamental laws of physics. One thing he understands really well is the physics of the rockets. He understands that like nobody else. The stuff I have seen him do in his head is crazy. He can get in discussions about flying a satellite and whether we can make the right orbit and deliver Dragon at the same time and solve all these equations in real time. It’s amazing to watch the amount of knowledge he has accumulated over the years."

-- Kevin Watson (developed the avionics for Falcon 9 and Dragon. He previously managed the Advanced Computer Systems and Technologies Group within the Autonomous Systems Division at NASA's Jet Propulsion laboratory.)

> “He’s obviously skilled at all those different functions, but certainly what really drives him and where his passion really is, is his role as CTO,” or chief technology officer. Basically his role as chief designer and chief engineer. That’s the part of the job that really plays to his strengths."

> "What's really remarkable to me is the breadth of his knowledge. I mean I've met a lot of super super smart people but they're usually super super smart on one thing and he's able to have conversations with our top engineers about the software, and the most arcane aspects of that and then he'll turn to our manufacturing engineers and have discussions about some really esoteric welding process for some crazy alloy and he'll just go back and forth and his ability to do that across the different technologies that go into rockets cars and everything else he does."

--Garrett Reisman, engineer and former NASA astronaut, Professor of Astronautical Engineering at University of Southern California.

> "Elon is both the Chief Executive Officer and Chief Technology Officer of SpaceX, so of course he does more than just ‘some very technical work’. He is integrally involved in the actual design and engineering of the rocket, and at least touches every other aspect of the business (but I would say the former takes up much more of his mental real estate). Elon is an engineer at heart, and that’s where and how he works best."

-- Josh Boehm, the former Head of Software Quality Assurance at SpaceX.

> "Elon is the chief engineer in name and reality."

-- Eric Berger, space journalist and Ars Technica's senior space editor.

Many more comments here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/k1e0ta/eviden...

Gosh, so much of your time wasted to defend a man who doesn't know who you are, and even if he knew wouldn't care a single bit about your existence...

Fanboyism is really, really weird.

Some people "waste time" recognising superb acheivements of people they don't know. This happens a lot in science and technology, where a single individual can contribute a tremendous amount to advance human knowledge and technology.

Other people waste time criticising people they don't know simply because those people have different political opinions.

The former behaviour comes naturally to me. People who do the latter need to be pulled up on it.

So why don't you recognise the actual people doing the work that advances humanity in research and development instead of Musk?

Few people have achieved as much as Musk.

He reduced the cost of space travel by 10x and restored America's re-usable vehicle capability after decades of government mis-management.

He spearheaded the transition to sustainable transportation by building a brand new car startup which is now the most valuable automaker in the world (by market cap).

He has demonstrated viable brain-computer interfaces in humans.

He co-founded the most important AI company in the world.

He brought free speech back to Twitter, ending a dystopian era of government-coordinated censorship.

He reduced Las Vegas commute times from 45 minutes to 2 minutes by starting a tunnelling company from scratch, developing new electric tunnelling machines with continuous capabililty, and building tunnels.

I agree that it's crucial that in democracy, the press, academy, finance, industry, sport, religion, social should all be independent.

That, unfortunately, is simply not the case at the moment. A good example is Biden excluding Tesla from EV-related events and discussions (and making the laughable claim that GM was leading the EV industry). Or the Biden-state Democrat-appointed judge McCormick who intervened in the Musk's X deal, and who cancelled Musk's pay package.

Musk believes in libertarian, small-state values. In fact he intervened recently to reduce the size and power of the American state system. That's what libertarians do. That's not what authoritarians do. It's CERTAINLY not what fascists do (one aspect of fascism is large, totalitarian state apparatus)

I'm glad you agree democracy requires independence in the three branches of govt and various branches of society.

Which is why Musk's "Libertarian" presentation does not match reality.

Musk spent more than a quarter BILLION dollars electing the most authoritarian person ever to occupy the chair of the US president, and now that the president Musk helped elect is actively using the power of the state to take control of corporations and threaten and coerce everyone in academia, journalism, media, and even comedians, Musk is not even posting protests on his own social media network to such massively anti-libertarian actions; he's egging it on. Musk is either the dumbest Libertarian ever to be suckered into putting $250 Billion into an anti-Libertarian candidate, or you are being deceived.

As for Biden's relationship with Musk, would you really expect the most pro-union President in the last half-century to actively promote one of the most flagrantly anti-union and worker-hostile corporate executives in recent history? I agree it may not have been the smartest move by Biden to so blatantly shun Musk, but.

As for the DOGE efforts, they were most definitely NOT supporting small-state values, they actively cost the govt money, and the primary reason was the most massive data raid ever, taking most of the Social Security Administration, Dept Of Labor, Dept of Educ., and other databases onto uncontrolled servers outside the govt system, attempting a data fusion unauthorized by ANY representatives of the people. Considering his relationship with Peter Theil running Palantir, who is openly authoritarian, believing democracy is incompatible with freedom, I'd put at best even odds the data hasn't been exfiltrated to the most authoritarian technology effort ever in the democratic world.

Musk is either an extremely bad libertarian or none at all.

> he president Musk helped elect is actively using the power of the state to take control of corporations and threaten and coerce everyone in academia, journalism, media, and even comedians.

Coercing who, exactly? Do you have any examples?

Seems odd that an alleged authoritarian president would massively reduce the power of the state (DOGE), doesn't it?

> As for the DOGE efforts, they were most definitely NOT supporting small-state values, they actively cost the govt money,

Not in the long term, they won't. Reduce the size of the state = reduce the cost of the state.

Peter Thiel is a libertarian. He was misconstrued by some as "authoritarian" based on a 2009 essay which included the phrase "I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible" -- the sentence is misunderstood as anti-democratic. What Thiel instead feared is "that mass democracy, driven by emotion, resentment, and short-termism, will deliberately or accidentally dismantle the freedoms that underpin innovation and growth"

>>Coercing who, exactly? Do you have any examples?

Seriously?

How can you ignore or justify as not authoritarian all the newspeople and COMEDIANS who Trump has coerced the networks into cancelling? All the spurious lawsuits and threats of abusive government action against any org broadcasting non-Trump-favorable news? Check the current abuse of the DOJ to go against anyone involved in investigating his crimes, the unilaterial userpation of Congress' power of the purse with the daily tariff announcements?

DOGE is massively reducing the power of the state? NO, (aside from teh data raid) it is removing career professionals who might govern competently instead of loyally to the Chief Executive. That is the opposite of reducing government power, it is concentrating it.

DOGE saving money? Nope again, every week it gets worse. They are literally recalling fired workers who have been on payroll doing nothing since April because the functions cannot be performed without them. Six months of paid leave without even firing people is the opposite of efficiency with payroll money.

Theil Libertarian? Are you serious? He is building Palantir, which is the largest surveillance company ever, and integrating it into every government function he can. His friend Ellison also stated 'people will be on their best behavior when they are under cameras all the time'. Those are not the statements or actions of Libertarians, and any Libertarian sentiments are cover at best.

Seriously, look and reassess. You are providing a fine example of how motivated reasoning and enthusiasm can lead to deeply wrong conclusions

edit: correct "unpaid leave" to "paid leave"

Plus, another reminder, Elon supported ALL of this with $250 - $400 million. That is not the action of a libertarian

And seriously, this [0] is something a Libertarian would do?

"Musk calls Anti-Defamation League ‘hate group’ for documenting Christian extremism"

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/sep/29/elon-musk...

>>Coercing who, exactly? Do you have any examples?

Seriously? #2

We now have the President and Commander In Chief (elected with the essential help of a quarter-$$billion++ of Elon Musk's money) just addressed an unprecedented gathering of Generals declaring the most important war is in "[US cities .....That's a war too. It's a war from within"

The most important potential war is not Russia, China, or even Transnational Drug Cartels, it is US citizens

And the Secretary of War also addressed the same group telling them that "We untie the hands of our war fighters to intimidate, demoralize, hunt and kill the enemies of our country. No more politically correct and overbearing rules of engagement, just common sense, maximum lethality and authority for war fighters,"

So, the very top leadership of the country is declaring to the top militery that greatest enemy is US citizens and the military will be deployed to US cities to fight, and without rules of engagement, so they can more effectively "intimidate, demoralize, hunt and kill" everyone, including those US citizens and residents.

This is the most authoritarian, and frankly straight-up fascist move I've seen in the US in my lifetime, if not ever.

Please explain how these actions (again, directly supported by massive amounts of money and effort from Elon Musk) are in any way "Libertarian". Seriously.

[0] https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/trump-pi...

[1] https://www.newindianexpress.com/world/2025/Sep/30/intimidat...

6 minutes before this comment you proclaimed yourself a Tesla fanboy, admitted the door handles are unsafe, and now you are trying to deflect the criticism to point out the EuroNCAP results?

Would the EuroNCAP stat help you in any way if your kids get trapped on the back of your car while you are unconscious and burn to death because they don't know how to operate the handle? That's the issue, it doesn't matter the EuroNCAP if such a stupid decision has and will kill people, statistically it's very improbable it will affect you but it will affect someone just like you.

Please, let go of the cult...

I'm glad there's some rational, reasonable people left on Hacker News

I hope everyone bans them, too many are copying them and its a major turnoff.

At least they didn't the door openers on the touch screen.

I can't think of a reason to build these stupid door handles unless the intention is to actually trap people inside your vehicle

That is not something that I would personally admit to, but you do you.

Enjoy your death trap

https://archive.ph/r5Q6O

Tesla fanboy and Model S owner here. I agree, those door handles are unsafe.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/2012_2020_models/en_ie/GU...

> To open a rear door in the unlikely situation when Model S has no power, fold back the edge of the carpet below the rear seats to expose the mechanical release cable. Pull the mechanical release cable toward the center of the vehicle.

I have mentioned this to my family but I don't think there's any way my kids could operate these manual releases on their own, and certainly not in the heat of the moment.

It gives me chills to imagine the consequences of this for my family in an accident.

>It gives me chills to imagine the consequences of this for my family in an accident.

So.. get another car. Safety first.

You acknowledge the life-threatening danger of the cars and you still proclaim yourself as a fanboy and you're keeping the car...

"Cognitive dissonance" and "cult behavior" is what comes to my mind when I read this.

The car has many other safety features that make it overall one of the safest cars on the road. Teslas in general rank very well for safety:

https://www.whatcar.com/news/the-safest-cars-on-sale-today/n...

> Out of the 20 models tested so far in 2025, just two scored high enough marks to be included in our top 10. Most impressively, the Tesla Model 3 is now the safest new car on the market thanks to its overall score of 359 out of 400.

---

> you're keeping the car...

Actually I'm planning to upgrade my Model S to a Model Y. Thanks for asking!

I was in a car accident age 12. Both doors on the driver's side were blocked by another vehicle, which was on fire, so my dad had to climb awkwardly through the passenger side.

My door in the back was blocked, but my brother wasn't able to open his, as it was damaged. I had to kick it while pulling the handle.

Good luck doing that in a Tesla.

bloomberg had an article last week which has a nice overview of how to manually open doors from inside teslas without power:

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2025-tesla-dangerous-door...

Unpaywalled: https://archive.ph/QCuQJ

Screenshots of instructions: https://imgur.com/a/96ckdjv

For me the safety factor easily outweighs anything else. Give me mechanical door handles, please. I was bummed to hear the new leaf was going this way.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com