Seoul says US must fix its visa system if it wants Korea's investments
english.hani.co.kr
english.hani.co.kr
From another article:
> Images of South Koreans being shackled at the wrists and ankles have caused outrage in South Korea, a key U.S. ally in Asia that has pledged hundreds of billions in U.S. investment as part of tariff negotiations.
It’s just not smart, not good politics and not good business.
Sleep well, folks—America is saved, one deported factory worker at a time.
When US engineers went to China to offshore US factories there, I doubt China got in the way. Probably watched with heavy interest but definitely not hindered in any way.
It’s not about economics. It’s about racism and nationalism through and through. You can’t look at it with a rationalist lens or it can’t make sense. The issue is the dilution of a perceived whiteness of the American identity being threatened by non-white immigration. It doesn’t matter why the Korean workers were here or how tenuous or nonexistent the immigration violation claims were. It matters they weren’t white.
For proof, which hasn’t been particularly hidden, see the extreme efforts to create a false narrative (including the president confronting a foreign leader with photographs from a completely different country) of white persecution in South Africa and a recalibration of refugee program to prioritize white South Africans. It’s the whole “reverse discrimination” malarkey (as if discrimination is structurally one way) playing out with fabrication and lies since they couldn’t find real facts. A rationalist argument can’t be found, because it’s not rational - it’s just racist nationalism.
This is going to be remembered in history globally as one of the embarrassing low points that beggars the question of American moral standing , which is likewise a fallacious tu quoque argument. What’s going on ignores the fact the founding fathers were enlightenment liberal humanists of the extreme degree, and while creatures of their time, endeavored hard to establish a construct in the constitution and bill of rights a system that will eventually and stably arrive at an ideal liberal humanist society. They recognized with pretty clear sightedness their own imperfections in this regard and recognized society changes slowly, but believed the constitution and bill of rights would make the change inexorable. I for one agree after studying it for some time. This means this aberration we see today, which is reminiscent of Sulla’s attack on the Roman republic, was well planned for an accounted for. They knew clearly and better than we do the natural tendency of man, and specifically corrupt ambitious racist theologists as their time was steeped in, and built a system that mean reverts always towards a liberal humanist outcome.
The question to my mind is will I live to see the damage undone and is my daughter equipped to right the ship in her life time.
What about the local citizen who is clearly neither the migrant nor the capitalist, both of whom conduct wage arbitrage the local doesn't benefit from? How is that not economic and why is that assumed to be racist? Savannah is almost 50% Black https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savannah,_Georgia#Demographics but they can't employ a workforce that even maybe resembles the local demographics?
Why isn't it rational for the local citizens to see a business skirting the law to get American consumer dollars but avoid American wages and calculate that's not just not to their benefit, its to their detriment?
I don't imagine a lot of Americans in Savannah have experience standing up a battery factory, which is also a temporary job by definition.
How is competence built with any offshoring of a new thing? I think it’s a stretch to say Americans can’t be trained to make a factory.
I think the simplest explanation is the likely one: that costs money, we can avoid paying if we use an underclass that doesn’t follow the rules or share the costs of locals we can undercut.
SK has been building battery factories for a while, naturally, they ended up with an experienced talent pool.
> How is competence built with any offshoring of a new thing?
China has the blueprint: enforce knowledge sharing/knowledge transfer to local entities, and provide adequate direction and government funding.
> I think it’s a stretch to say Americans can’t be trained to make a factory.
Experience =/= capability - Americans certainly can be trained, but who's paying (and waiting) for that? Does it make economic sense to do so for a one-and-done project? LG Chem (and its vendor ecosystem) have been building battery factories for well over a decade now, and will continue to use that competency. What would happen to your hypothetical newly-trained, all-American battery-factory builders once the Savannah project is up and running? Especially under this administration that is set on cutting the knees from under renewables.
If that money isn't trickling down to rural America don't blame Johnny Foreigner blame your very white and very old leaders in Washington.
I don’t think race affects the vote for permitting or funding this program that equates to anything more than “my donors treat me very well if I vote for thing so line goes up”. In other words, enabling a underclass is entirely compatible with diverse .gov representatives.
In the pov of locals excluded (or let’s say not hired) from the factory, they have less chance of access to a wage and skill development than those on the inside.
It’s possible we didn’t get it built so they just didn’t reach the step where they do a hiring event. It’s also possible they were never going to hire locals, and parts and labor were shipped in with no intent to use the area for anything but a footprint and utilities.
We see what we want to see in these things, and you’re right, it could have had some positives eventually.
I find that very unlikely. In Slovakia we have a lot of Korean factories (Kia, Samsung etc) and while the management is Korean, they always hire local workers if available, otherwise agencies hire who's available - in our case workers from Serbia, Ukraine and Central Asia (that's not an unique situation, there is a general shortage of relatively-low-wage workers in the EU so people from outside are brought in to work here full time).
I mean--if it's green tech, it has to be impeded. Otherwise how can we continue to burn oil?
Calling it "American imperialism" doesn't make sense because even Trump's stated (and admittedly imperial) goals don't actually line up here.
It will undoubtedly have negative financial effect on those same constituents, but there's always someone else to arrest and take the blame. It's fantastic politics.
Good for them. If USA is not a reliable ally anymore, not a surprise there are active talks on free trade agreement between China, Japan and Korea.
I was speaking solely about politics, i.e. winning elections. And if you can't win elections, none of your other policies matter.
From my reading, this is what they seem to have meant by "bad politics". It's just not clear that OP meant "politics" strictly as "winning elections". I agree that it's good domestic politics. It may have even been seen as a tradeoff by the administration.
If Trump wanted leverage in negotiations and to appear strong on immigration... fine.
But there are so many ways of accomplishing that that didn't also alienate and piss off an ally to the extent this perp photo shoot did.
Hell, the government could have just politely detained them, put out a big splashy press release, then worked with the South Korean embassy to repatriate them. Same benefit, fewer hard feelings.
In contrast, as a result now there's going to be much higher government and South Korean domestic pushback on exactly the kind of US investment Trump wants.
It's one thing when someone does something distasteful but gets benefit out of going that far. It's another when they do it because they're inept.
The only people this excess played well for was Trump's base, and as others pointed out, there are plenty of less trade sensitive immigrant groups that could have been substituted, if that was the goal.
How sure are we of that? Did we really get this information from trustworthy sources?
Did America run out of Hondurians? Going after Koreans is just dumb on so many levels it's like America wants China to win.
In it, a wife had died in the shower, and the husband and his father had been inside the house while the shower was on, but "had not talked to her."
Naturally, suspicions arose and they wanted to talk more to the husband, but the way the officers continued to rile up the father, who was probably in chock after finding out his son might be a murderer, was just pure unprofessionalism. They could have taken a step back, or avoided being four officers against one father, or any other obvious technique to de-escalate, but nope. Just continue pushing, arguing and believing that "doing our job" never means re-assessing the approach.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVo8PRRkWHc
Edit: spelling
But even all of these that emerge in a given year taken together amount to only a minuscule fraction of the likely millions of times per year in which police talk to people or question them with nothing but boring civility all around. Even if we account for a certain percentage of police encounters with unwarranted police aggression not being reported or going viral, it would still be a tiny minority compared to the vast majority that go the other way.
I mention this because just the other day in a YT documentary I saw about a woman who disappeared under an air of mystery (link below for the curious) and it incidentally showed body cam footage of her own interaction under unusual circumstances with a police officer who could have easily been much more suspicious considering how he found her shortly before she disappeared, for reasons unrelated to that cop. It was the picture of politeness. Because the focus of the documentary wasn't highlighting police aggression, it gave a glimpse into how many recorded police encounters go in situations where they don't later become the focus of social media threads about bad cops.
None of the above is to excuse cops acting badly, or excuse how often they get used for shitty, pseudo-authoritarian social control, or to claim that they don't have too much authority to get away with it when it does happen, but it's useful for perspective on how often these things happen and how likely they really are for most normal contexts (you not being someone doing something notably obnoxious, not being in situations where you're likely to interact with especially suspicious cops, etc)
Also, i'm sort of excluding ICE from the above. At least lately, those guys seem to be pervasive dicks by wide mandate in general.
So in other words SOP
This means there is a huge incentive to create spectacle out of arrests. So, that in case the field office lags behind, they can always point to the photo op - See how hard we were working there?
This might not hurt the government politically because supporters can see those hard hats and exclaim - See they were wearing hard hats, how were they not breaking the law?
But at the cost of creating an unnecessary diplomatic crisis. Even if there were visa issues, this puts South Korean government in a bind - they need to answer to their constituents. Being seen as incompetent and unable to save its citizen abroad is a sensitive topic in many countries.
Investments might be impacted as well. It seems to me that many Trump supporters think international politics requires blustering. But much of the work happens behind the scenes.
2. Allies are less powerful, the world starts another world war
3. Get sneakily attacked
4. Win the war by entering when everyone is already spent out after fighting for several years.
5. Everyone likes USA because they helped.
6. Profit.
Looks like history is about to make another turn of the same wheel, but this time WW1 is Russia (+China) <-> Ukraine (+EU). Russia will be rebuilt by China and start another round to get back on EU.
> 1. Lose all the allies, become isolated.
UK will stay. And 50%+ of Poles, maybe more. Also this time Sounth America won't allow isolation - a) they think promises from China are worth something; b) they may have hopes of looting richer lands, russian-wave style, streaight into bullet streams...
> 2. Allies are less powerful, the world starts another world war
Read: Germans explode again... And just looks like their rulers are owned by external enemies working on exactly that - in what other country womans can be mass ripped by some new arrivals ?? And gov just do censorship... Look like society preparation for unrest...
> 3. Get sneakily attacked
And make some dead americans by attacking something stupid ? Becose stories are important for top star generals...
Also "spinners" already started to be distibuted country wide...
And when Germans attacked Poland in '39 they had lists of "intelligence" - like teachers and priests and now we have social media...
> 4. Win the war by entering when everyone is already spent out after fighting for several years.
Only if US will NOT be attacked at the start...
> 5. Everyone likes USA because they helped.
Certainly not loosing side :)
> 6. Profit.
Yeah. If only US will be on winners side and not in bigger isolation.
But times changed. Nukes. Balistic missiles. Baloons with viruses. Rare earth metals are basic need. Termovision cameras on the ground and satelites (at least in first stage). Mr. Musk saying: Anywhere on Earth, 40 minutes, 9 million :)
And nukes again. Pretty much exclude all owners from bigger conflict...
And history learned - maybe official WW3 part will not pour out of Europe this time. But in this case it won't be a "world" war. Or maybe "war" will be somewhere else...
Make no mistake: This is not grand strategy. It's grandstanding. It's not part of some 5D chess plan. It's just Trump and his ilk being petty, racist bullies, trying desperately to show that they're "more manly" than anyone else.
How? (I’m really trying here.)
Anyway, the way ICE treats immigrants is going to cost the US dearly, both in monetary and in reputational terms. The US may not care much about the dignity of the foreigners, but their parent countries do. The charade about 'illegal immigrants' won't work anymore, because clearly that's not what's happening. It's like the foreigners are targeted to prove a political point to the domestic audience. ICE is acting like a rogue force and is really asking to be outlawed and sanctioned internationally. I want to see how long the rest of the world will remain restrained before they've had enough of the ICE abuse.
[1] The news I got from a US source (don't remember which one) was that all of them except one were on valid temporary work visas to set up the plant and train the new US staff who would take over later. That one exception was also on a valid visa, but 'productive job' was not allowed. But he was there for training, so no violations there either.
Everyone is exercising diplomatic niceties [1].
However, we have all come to realise the USA can no longer be trusted as a good faith partner. The USA has even managed to piss off Canada. And lets be honest, you have got to work really hard to piss off the Canadians.
[1] British subtlety at it's finest... official photos of His Majesty The King meeting Big Z, the latter appropriately dressed for meeting royalty. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/volodymyr-zelensky-...
Agreed. That's so comically tragic!
The rest of the world will remain restrained indefinitely. Yes, populist politics requires voicing outrage at this, but otherwise this is more a good thing than a bad thing.
Because salaries in the US in the real sector of the economy are often 5 times higher than even in other developed countries. So there is a huge drain of the best specialists to the US from all over the world. And no country wants to lose its best professionals.
Here is the latest information I have from the AP article linked below:
> U.S. authorities have said that those detained during the raid were “unlawfully working” at the plant. But Charles Kuck, a lawyer representing several of the detained South Koreans, said the “vast majority” of the workers from South Korea were doing work that is authorized under the B-1 business visitor visa program.
Needless to say, the former party's credibility is a bit suspect now. I hope you remember the people who were trafficked to the El Salvadorian prison CECOT in the name of Tren de Aragua. Evidence in that case is still a joke. So in this case, we have to assume that at least the 'vast majority' of detained Koreans were there legally. ICE doesn't even distinguish between an immigrant and a citizen. What hopes do legal immigrants have?
> Are they sticking to the training missions or actually just doing the work and brushing aside the trainees to maintain leverage?
What were those 'trainees' going to do in an unfinished plant? Don't they need some equipment from Korea to be commissioned before they can do something?
From the article again:
> "It’s not like these are long-term workers. When you build a factory or install equipment at a factory, you need technicians, but the United States doesn’t have that workforce and yet they won’t issue visas to let our people stay and do the work. If that’s not possible, then establishing a local factory in the United States will either come with severe disadvantages or become very difficult for our companies. They will wonder whether they should even do it"
> That cannot be tolerated IMO.
Did you have any issues tolerating the 350 B$ Korean investment that came along with it? From the article:
> During his meeting with Rubio, Cho also proposed the creation of a joint South Korea-U.S. working group to introduce a new visa category for workers from the Asian nation, according to Cho’s ministry.
This is all backwards! When a foreign nation makes such a massive investment in your country, it's usually the host nation that takes the initiative to resolve all such issues. That too, well before the work starts. Here the US authorities are behaving as if the Koreans should be grateful to them for giving them the opportunity and privilege to invest in their territory! South Korea isn't some backward squalor nation for its citizens to want to illegally sneak into the US. It's as if 'Have you ever thanked us?' is the US government motto! Or is it that the 'main character syndrome' is the national epidemic of the US? This is not how other nations deal with each other!
[1] https://apnews.com/article/georgia-immigration-raid-hyundai-...
When you do construction work, or operate the production line it has to be done by American Labour.
The visas they have only cover setup, repair and education of the production line.
At that LG/Hyundai factory they were using Korean contractors for construction. So there was some breaking of the terms of the visa for at least some of the people.
However, ICE didn't need to arrest everyone. All they needed to do was send a warning. These companies don't want the trouble, they would comply.
Now you have many Koreans very upset. And people in my friends company are now scared to go to America even though they are management.
It's not good for anyone, it's just so short sighted!
https://www.ft.com/content/c677b9aa-2e89-4feb-a56f-f3c8452b3...
You could just say you know someone at LG ;)
> However, ICE didn't need to arrest everyone. All they needed to do was send a warning. These companies don't want the trouble, they would comply.
The point is to reach quotas. Warnings and voluntary exits don't help with those.
> Now you have many Koreans very upset.
FWIW, the reaction among Koreans (i.e. in korea), especially the younger generation, has been quite mixed. Among age 20-39, only a minority expressed being "disappointed with the US' excessive measures". Among the older groups, the majority did react negatively.
huh? why??
- They'd want the very same thing to happen if the roles were reversed: foreign companies in Korea bringing in hundreds of people on questionable visas
- The companies knew exactly what they were doing, that it was illegal and that they were at risk. This had been coming for some time. Cases had been starting to pop up of those trying to do multiple consecutive visa runs (blatant abuse, but often instructed by these same companies) being denied.
- The employees who get sent on these business trips are often privileged and rich, so some take pleasure in seeing them not get away with something for once.
- Korean young MAGAs who love the concept of deportation and the current US gov
Blindly foolish.
S Korea is an ally, treat them as such.
They're building a factory in the US. Be nice!
Historically people have done it and a blind eye has been turned, but with the climate these days you want to be 100% in compliance of your Visa conditions.
From reading about what happened here it seems the South Koreans were on that visa waiver for their work trips. A lot of people claiming "it doesn't allow you to work" yet the visa waiver has a long long list of various types of work it does allow and it's pretty broad.
So it seems the ESTA isn't worth anything anymore. You can't go to the USA without a very very heavyweight working VISA. Ok. No more trade shows, conferences or general business trips.
There really isn’t much between a B-1 and an H1-B, so there isn’t much of a path forward here. That factory isn’t getting built until the USA re-instates previous exceptions.
Yes there’s pre clearance in Canada. This would ease the border a bit. But there’s still a risk that something somewhere will go wrong.
The main reason I stoped routing thru the US 10 years ago wasn’t ICE. I didn’t like the way border agents were rude and disrespectful. I felt like I was being interrogated every time and didn’t feel welcomed there. So I decided to vote with my wallet and simply not fly thru.
I mean, there’s literally hundreds of countries, why would I go somewhere with the risk of being arbitrarily detained, if I can help it at all?
Also that's not what happened. The ones responsible for the breach, IE Hyundai execs and management who took care of the visa waivers and asked their employees to setup production lines were not arrested, only the people who had little to say about capital allocation were. In a way, Hyundai investors would have been a better target than their workers since they choose the execs who chose to build in the USA.
In a war of attrition with China, guess which ally we’ll have to depend on to make our shit?
(Hint [1].)
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_shipbuil...
https://www.reuters.com/markets/emerging/poland-signs-contra...
Enemy of thy enemy.
We protect Korea from the Kims. We also buy from them and treat them with dignity. Break those pillars and yes, China controls Asia and the Pacific in a way Yamamoto could have only dreamed of.
> and the war is mostly a defensive one for China
China holding Taiwan is a direct threat to the security of Seoul.
Some enemies are more beneficial to left unattended. Realistically, there are almost no scenarios in which it would be advantageous for Korea to enter a war against China.
> We protect Korea from the Kims. We also buy from them and treat them with dignity
Still not worth a war with China.
> Break those pillars and yes, China controls Asia and the Pacific
Still not worth changing sides to China
Correct. This is where having America in the theatre, and in particular Taiwan, benefits Seoul.
Sort of like how Poland benefits from Putin being bogged down in Russia.
It would also require not making American steel and energy uniquely expensive, and American industry uninvestable.
Neither addresses the problem just provides a way to ignore it for longer.
Examples of temporary business include:
Attending business meetings or consultations Attending a business convention or conference Negotiating contracts
Attending meetings and conferences are rarely the main duties of an employee but they are the main purpose of trips.
Similarly to how, if you go to Mexico on a Tourist Visa but answer a critical work phone call you would not be breaching the terms of your visa as the purpose of your trip is still vacation. However if you rent a house for 5 months and spend most of that time doing developer work, I think that the authorities there might be a little upset.
Was only planning a single family trip in the US in the next few years anyway, and Trump nicely gave me an argument to visit the Carribbean instead (because yes, I intend to work a few days from my vacation,I have to when I take more than a month off).
In a hypothetical; If you were employed by an Canadian company, doing internal tech support and then you then move to Belize because you hate the cold. No interaction with anything in Belize.
The Belize government might say, "Not so, you moved here and are taking advantage of our infrastructure, societal governance, etc. but are not helping pay for it." Furthermore, natives of Belize may be upset that because you have a higher income than the native population you are affecting the cost of goods(not one person individually but if 1000 people with high income show up and are all looking to rent houses, the rental rates would rise both due to demand and the ability to pay.)
If we think about things especially from the second point of view, it would be very bad for a country to allow unlimited rich foreigners to come into their country and live there; Even if they are contributing by purchasing local goods and services, they are in competition with local workers as well; They might even stunt the economy if it becomes reliant on them and then they all move out suddenly; and the foreigners would also start shaping the culture of the country as well, which could be neocolonialism depending on your view of things.
EDIT to add: I like the idea of being able to live wherever I want to but it is also important to consider the views of those who are in those countries as well. I think that some(most?) people from Europe and North America don't have a strong national identity and don't see any value in such things. But there are people in other countries that do take a lot of pride in where they are from and how long their family has lived there. Some of this pride is what builds the culture and the local charm that those without enjoy but it becomes a sort of "We are destroying the thing we love by trying to experience it" situation.
Im guessing this is the case or else the SK sources would be calling out that these workers were following visa rules?
Its right there in the link the parent gave. As in they had a visa and ice acknowledged no violation of the terms of that visa in very plain english.
I have stamps from the US border that literally say B1/B2 on them.
If anything is undermining anyone's credibility here, it is not the article doing that.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_visa
There's also a picture of such a visa.
A B-1 / B-2 visa is a non-immigrant visa that allows foreign nationals to travel to the United States temporarily for business (B-1), tourism (B-2), or a mix of both (B1/B2). https://www.boundless.com/immigration-resources/b-1-b-2-visi...
B1 Visa Subcategories and Special Cases
While the B-1 visa generally restricts employment and formal education, there are some exceptions under specific circumstances. These exceptions aren’t separate visa categories but annotations considered by the U.S. consular officers during the visitor visa application process.
Here’s a closer look at these special B-1 subcategories:
B-1 after-sales service visa: Companies selling equipment to the U.S. can leverage this visa to send assemblers for on-site service orders. Think of it as temporary technical support. These assemblers can perform tasks like installation, maintenance, and training, but the assembly work must be done by U.S. personnel.
B-1 in place of H-1B visa (temporary project visa): Some professionals might be eligible for a B-1 visa for temporary projects in specific scenarios. This option can be viable when an H-1B visa, typically used for specialty occupations, might be challenging to obtain.
B-1 instead of H-3 visa (short-term training): Under certain conditions, the B-1 category can be used for brief in-house training sessions or further employee education. It allows for skills development without needing a dedicated H-3 visa designed for trainee positions.
IMPORTANT! These B1 business visa exceptions have strict requirements. Working with an immigration service provider or lawyer is highly recommended to determine if a particular B-1 visa category fits your situation.
https://www.immigrationdirect.com/guides/b1-b2-visitor-visa/
From statements made and queries in law enforcement databases, [redacted] has not violated his visa; however, the Atlanta Field Office Director has mandated [redacted] be presented as a Voluntary Departure. [Redacted] has accepted voluntary departure despite not violating his B1/B2 visa requirements.”
You seem to try to make a bigger distinction between B1 and B2 than the US government does.
I don't really remember, it's been 10y since I last had to fill out a DS-160, but I don't think so.
You probably will get asked about the purpose of your _first visit_ in the interview though.
Even setting that all aside, B1/B2 are _obviously_ very often combined together.
"I'm going for a conference, and then I'm going to do some sightseeing on the weekend" is something that, under some very strict and specific reading of the law, would require a B1/B2 visa for example.
If you want to be extremely strict in reading the law, you can't really attend a conference on a B1, and sightseeing would require a B2.
I don't trust the government and if they are in fact violating the law than I hope that there is recourse, I would bet however that there is a clause somewhere that says that they can rescind status if they like.
However The Guardian's evidence is a couple quotes from a leaked document, not a scan of the leaked document.
We do however learn the worker was from SFA: https://www.kedglobal.com/korean-smes/newsView/ked2022050900...
So probably not doing construction work as some of the claims and only arrived in June so not close to the start term of the B1/B2 6 mo allowed duration.
Nobody can, because it doesn’t exist. The E-4 visa mentioned in the article is a proposed new classification that a bill pending in Congress would, if enacted, create just for Korean workers, similar to the existing E-3 classification for Australians.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1101
8 USC §1101(a)(15)(H)(i)(b) has H-1B, 8 USC §1101(a)(15)(E)(iii) has E-3, and so on.
A treaty is not self-executing under US law unless it is both ratified by 2/3 of the Senate pursuant to the Treaty Clause of the Constitution and also contains language expressing that it will be self-executing upon ratification, in which case it has the same domestic legal effect as an Act of Congress. See Medellín v. Texas, 552 U.S. 491 (2008), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medell%C3%ADn_v._Texas for a recent SCOTUS precedent about this.
Many agreements which are treated internationally as treaties, including most US free trade agreements, are not considered as such for purposes of US constitutional law; many others are not self-executing even when they are ratified through the Treaty Clause procedure. These only have effect in US domestic law when implemented by implementing legislation passed by Congress, or to whatever extent the executive branch handles implementation through regulations, policies, or similar which it already has the authority to promulgate without new legislation.
For instance, here is a category listed by the government explicitly for "Engineer(s) install, service or repair commercial or industrial equipment or machinery sold by a non-U.S. company to a U.S. buyer".
Now if someone travels to the US to meet with a team here but also checks email / slack, or write some code together, is that work and in violation of the scope of the visa? If so, what's the alternative? Can't get any actual work visa since those require employment and being paid in the US.
It's also very noteworthy that these people are still being imprisoned in the US on Donald Trump's orders - Trump having personally prevented the repatriation of the Koreans to Korea today. There is absolutely no reason to believe that we have the full story, or that the Korean government, or the Korean's individual friends/families/represetnatives feel free to speak freely as America seemingly holds their citizens hostage. To say that lack of further public disputes is proof that there is not more to dispute seems false to me.
Can’t see past the paywall but what did he do? Prevent the charter flight from landing?
> South Korean officials originally hoped the Korean Air plane would leave Atlanta as early as Wednesday afternoon local time, shortly after it arrived from Seoul. But the foreign ministry said its departure was likely to be delayed “due to circumstances on the U.S. side,” and a spokesperson for Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport later said that the charter flight had been canceled.
> At a meeting with Secretary of State Marco Rubio in Washington on Wednesday, South Korean Foreign Minister Cho Hyun learned that Trump had ordered the suspension of the repatriation process in order to discuss with South Korea whether its detained nationals — all of them skilled workers who were helping to set up an electric vehicle battery plant — should remain in the U.S. to continue their work rather than being sent home.
We can debate the validity of the government's claim, I have seen an article which says that the workers were on B1/B2 Visa which has strict requirements for what is allowed from what I have read but also says the government in it's internal report also stated no crime was committed.
Which countries just repatriate those they accuse of crimes rather than prosecute?
Holding people in custody in order to negotiate a business deal is the definition of hostage taking.
IIRC, US embassies in eligible countries are usually very picky about issuing B-1 visas. They assume ESTA works in most cases, so you need a strong reason to apply for B-1.
The question being asked by the parent is if they stepped outside the boundaries of that visa waiver.
No one asked about visas. I didn't think that was an issue since I really was there for a week for a business conference, but maybe it was? After all, technically it was a "Tourist" visa.
In the end though, SFDC keeps almost all of its technical talent in the US. If the government really got annoying, they probably would have stuck to the local talent and forgotten about the rest of us.
Technically there are lots of restrictions and actual commercial visas are sometimes required, like you've been to sanctioned countries in the past, or if you're engaging in businesses locally like purchasing materials to export for resale(not even B-1 allows that?), but it's all kind of arbitrary.
>At least one of the Korean workers swept up in a huge immigration raid on a Hyundai Motor factory site in Georgia last week was living and working legally in the US, according to an internal federal government document obtained by the Guardian.
>Officials then “mandated” that he agree to be removed from the US despite not having violated his visa.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/10/hyundai-fact...
I did some research on B1/B2 Visa's it looks like the work allowed is rather restricted. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45207369
When the media so blatantly cherry-pick what they choose to report and what they turn a blind eye to, can such a misinformed society really be called a democracy?
Its not misinformation vs the governments word. Its misinformation vs populist pseudo-fascist misinformation.
If the government is telling you or us that these workers did not have valid visas, that probably means that at least some definitely did have valid visas.
Can you show us the proof?
> Most of the people had come on the wrong visa
Can you show us the proof?
> knowingly
Can you show us the proof?
You're very sure about it without all the details being known and people possibly still wanting to get out safely, without causing further conflicts by speaking out. I've done enough travel / border chats that if I ended up in their situation, I'd be keen to shut up and get out as soon as possible, regardless of my legal status.
This is not caused by Trump; its latent attitude being surfaced.
You have to ignore just about every other part of the story to arrive at this breathless conclusion.
Let’s remember that for this project alone Hyundai invested more money than 99% of us will ever see into this country, and more sum labor hours than any of our individual lives. That’s not what disrespect looks like.
Maybe their visas were not in order so ok enforce that. But not by having their engineers perp walked on live television.
As a side note, if we are going to judge the Hyundai engineers then we must also believe that Elon Musk should have been deported due to his well known early career visa violations. or be damned as hypocrites.
Look around you. Is this really the US you want to be living in? Are you really so pathetic as to be proud of this?
What kind of people do we want to be? Do we really want to be cruel cunts and wave around a "well it's technically legal!!1!" flag? Is that who YOU want to be? Is that how the US should treat allies which invest billions into our economy?
So...arresting crims in the US (but not SK) and locking up psychos who dismember young Americans is (for you) 'domestic terrorism', because you're ... fine with rampant crime and bloodshed against Americans? But "terrified" of Americans feeling safe, and society being peaceful? Huh, okay. Are you South Korean and lacking empathy?
Or are you in fact MS-13 or TDA? Or ... I know this dates me a bit, Al-Qaieda or Daesh? If not, maybe apply today. You're already making them proud. Good on you, you've found your purpose!
Many Americans don't realize how badly Trump's bullying approach is backfiring internationally.
Our immigration system was nightmare before Trump and it’s only going to get worse because no one in this admin has any real intention of fixing it for everyone’s benefit.
I don't see how Zuckerberg, Bezos, or anyone in the tech industry is going to come out of this unscathed with this kind of attitude prevalent in the tech industry. Maybe they think either there will be no consequences or they can make enough money off of the US market alone.
Wait - you're just being performative to pretend it's not happening, chyeah? Ohhh, okay. So I need to counter with facts so the 'narrative' maintains that it is happening, otherwise you've 'proven' that it's not, via your unanswered request, right?
Okay, so -- while you're basically simping for SK here, yes? Invested, ethnic? -- Anyway, sure, here's a tiny fraction:
- Kolon Industries Inc. (South Korea/n) Pleads Guilty for Conspiring to Steal DuPont Trade Secrets Involving Kevlar Technology https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/kolon-industries-inc...
- Toray Chemical Korea Resolves Attempted Theft Of Trade Secrets Investigation And Agrees To Pay Over $2 Million Penalty https://www.justice.gov/usao-edva/pr/toray-chemical-korea-re...
- Idaho National Laboratory (INL) Espionage Attempt https://www.tmpcinc.com/espionage-case-doe-lab-contractor-em...
- SK (Samsung) steals DRAM from US companies (uses softening, weasel language you'll like): 'Samsung adopted a dual strategy for development of the 256K DRAM generation, following extensive "reverse engineering" of Micron's design (Ernst 1994b: 81). Two teams, one in Silicon Valley and the other in Korea, simultaneously started the same work. In October 1984, the Korea-based team developed a 256K DRAM sample. In early 1985 the Silicon Valley team developed one, and this was the sample adopted for mass production (Ernst 1994b). The DRAM case provides one of the most important examples of Samsung's practice of creating new capability by quickly combining new knowledge and information from foreign sources with its accumulated current skill base' https://brie.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/wp106.pdf
- 1992–1994: Micron accuses Hyundai & Goldstar (LG) of using Micron’s DRAM process; ITC case and settlement. https://www.upi.com/Archives/1992/11/13/Micron-files-patent-... "In Nov 1992 Micron filed a Section 337 complaint at the U.S. International Trade Commission alleging imported DRAMs “manufactured abroad by a process” covered by Micron’s U.S. Patent 4,436,584. The investigation (337-TA-345) was terminated in 1994 after Micron and Hyundai executed a settlement and license agreement; Micron’s own 1994 annual report also notes cross-licenses with Goldstar and Hyundai and dismissal of the ITC action. This is the clearest, contemporaneous paper trail that Micron said its process IP was being used without permission and then licensed it via settlement." https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-1994-03-16/html/94-61...
etc ...
https://www.immigration.go.kr/immigration_eng/1852/subview.d...
Doesn't look like it. Several restrictions on how many (max 5) dependent upon the construction budget.
If Korea selectively needs to bring over skilled workers, there are options. But hundreds?
No, it absolutely can't. I'm familiar with the Korean visa system, and you're correct.
"The L-1B nonimmigrant classification enables a U.S. employer to transfer a professional employee with specialized knowledge relating to the organization’s interests from one of its affiliated foreign offices to one of its offices in the United States. This classification also enables a foreign company that does not yet have an affiliated U.S. office to send a specialized knowledge employee to the United States to help establish one."
https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary...
B1 is very restricted in the kind of work that can be done and it is claimed that the Hyundai workers have violated the restrictions.
There were here on B1/B2 Visas according to the reporting, which has a 6 month duration and rather strict requirements: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45207369
If they were here in the first case of the word, I would say they were definitely in violation. If here for the second case, perhaps not but if they did not get the "B-1 in place of H-1B visa (temporary project visa): Some professionals might be eligible for a B-1 visa for temporary projects in specific scenarios. This option can be viable when an H-1B visa, typically used for specialty occupations, might be challenging to obtain." they may have still been in violation.
It was probably a tactic to get stuff done.
The issue is US wants via coercion / pressure due to strategic leverages US that has elsewhere on host of "partners". It's not typical courting for investment. US want others who are already reluctant to invest in US on US terms, even if the terms are onerous/broken i.e. the VISA system. US not making it easy, and in fact, unnecessarily hard for political theatre. Countries are investing in US because US took away carrots and added a lot of sticks, which is already different dynamic. Most countries that really want something from someone else has to play nice, give carrots and remove sticks. US/Trump admin thinks otherwise, and maybe it's in position to get away with it. Or maybe investors will bail regardless of how big the stick gets.
Because if so, this outrage feels a bit "No stop, those aren't the color immigrants we wanted you to round up."
*Note for anyone on Hackernews: hani is well-known as left-wing news outlet in Korea. Think about CNN, and take with grain of salt.
I can't count the number of third world countries where local politicians, in power for decades sometimes, depend on exactly the above rules. They abuse their systems in the same ways, say similar lies to their supporters, and keep winning enough votes to stay in power for years or even decades.
The same has been the case of certain democrat and republican party machines in major US cities that went utterly to shit across many election cycles in which the same ideological bases kept winning. It's just a shame that it has to happen at a national level now with similar results brewing.
It's not that the Koreans are the only one's doing this. It's that they were the first to hit by this very new interpretation of the law. Now that this interpretation is public i don't think anyone's going to the US for conferences/trade shows/general business trips for a few years.
This new extremely strict interpretation means that the only safe way to travel to the USA for work is on a h1-b or similar heavyweight working visas.
This is fine if you wish to interpret it this strictly. There are of course consequences and as noted by many many non-US people above the ESTA business visa waiver is near worthless under such strict interpretation. Which means no more short term trips to the US office nor conferences or trade shows. The lack of something lighter weight than a full working visa for these sorts of things means the USA is closed for business.
What is “these sorts of things” to you? To me building factories and installing equipment on the factory floor is a different class of work that is generally prohibited under the lighter options like ESTA or a B1 visa. Here is what B1 allows as an example:
Consulting with business associates
Traveling for a scientific, educational, professional or business convention, or a conference on specific dates
Settling an estate
Negotiating a contract
Participating in short-term training
Transiting through the United States: certain persons may transit the United States with a B-1 visa
Deadheading: certain air crewmen may enter the United States as deadhead crew with a B-1 visa
I think many non-US residents observing this would be on the side of not trusting ice and are now less willing to travel to the USA for a work trip on a visa waiver.
It is claimed that their work has exceeded the limits of B1.