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Comment by gdbsjjdn | Hacker News Reader

People who play professional sports basically sacrifice the first 20 years of their life for a lotto ticket to get, on average, 2-4 years of playing time. There's a high risk of debilitating injury even if they're successful. As other people have pointed out that salary is before you consider any professional fees for agents, etc.

I do also have to remark on the irony of someone on the "250k a year to type prompts into a AI to get the wrong answer" website complaining that athletes are overpaid and don't contribute anything to society

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> People who play professional sports basically sacrifice the first 20 years of their life for a lotto ticket to get, on average, 2-4 years of playing time.

Everybody who studies and works towards a career/goal 'sacrifices the first 20 years of their life' as well by that logic. And playing lottery is a pointless and practically useless activity, which only results in negative results for the vast majority of participants.

> I do also have to remark on the irony of someone on the "250k a year to type prompts into a AI to get the wrong answer" website complaining that athletes are overpaid and don't contribute anything to society

I don't see the irony at all. But I guess your point is that posting 'on the "250k a year to type prompts into a AI to get the wrong answer" website' makes your comments somehow irrelevant and/or meaningless? Is that the point you're trying to make lol?

> I don't see the irony at all. But I guess your point is that posting 'on the "250k a year to type prompts into a AI to get the wrong answer" website' makes your comments somehow irrelevant and/or meaningless? Is that the point you're trying to make lol?

Yeah honestly HN is a huge circle jerk and commenting here feels like I am losing brain cells. Unfortunately as someone who doesn't live in the Bay and works remotely for startups there's some signalling value when interviewing if you can regurgitate whatever has been on the front page recently.

Although, we shouldn’t overstate the sacrifice, in the sense that: lots of people sacrifice those 20 years and don’t end up as professional sport players. We don’t reward sacrifice as a society, we reward value.

I don’t get much entertainment from watching sports, but I mean, the market is how we decide how to value things in the US, and it turns out professional sports are valuable by that metric for whatever reason.

Sports like NFL, Hockey, etc. are completely arbitrary and artificial. The only reason most people that watch these sports is because of marketing and being pushed to do so by society. Remove NFL and replace it with another arbitrary made up ball-game and nothing would change.

What is materially produced by the NFL? What societal problems does it solve?

It's as practically useful as scrolling through a tiktok feed, and the 'value' is basically the same - pushing advertising (which I don't consider to be a net benefit to society).

Just because you don't understand a sport doesn't make it "artifical", "arbitrary", impractical, or devoid of value.

I enjoy NFL football because it is a showcase of brain (from the offensive and defensive schemes), brawn (pretty self explanatory), and planning (drafting, trading, roster construction). Arguably moreso than most software development (replace brawn with the mental toughness to not crack after the fifth night of sleeping under your desk to ship something).

That you do not understand the game does not make it worthless. Clearly there is some worth because football is something people pay a lot of money to enjoy, and that money, while also concentrating in the hands of owners (and there's a lot to talk about there), goes to support the trainers, assistants, equipment managers, travel coordinators, hotel workers, security guards at the game, stadium staff, concessions staff, bars and restaurants (both around the stadium and at home during away games), and many other people. It inarguably creates value. That doesn't go away because you don't like and don't understand it.

In conclusion: GO PACK GO

NFL is artificial and arbitrary literally by definition.

> I enjoy NFL football because it is a showcase of brain

You enjoy it because you were brought up by society to enjoy it and it was pushed on you from all sides. If you grew up in, say, Iceland, you probably wouldn't know anything about it or care at all.

> That you do not understand the game does not make it worthless.

That you clearly do not understand the history of big sports, the way they were pushed onto the public, and their explicit use in the manipulation public opinion, doesn't mean your 'understanding' of arbitrary tidbits of an arbitrary sport is any kind of argument for that sport's overall usefulness and benefit to society.

> Clearly there is some worth because football is something people pay a lot of money to enjoy

You should go look into the history of big sports and why an arbitrary artificial sport which has existed for less than 200 years is so popular in one particular country and almost entirely ignored everywhere else. Saying 'thing exists therefore it's good' is meaningless and boring.

> It inarguably creates value.

Just because something creates economic activity does not mean it's of overall benefit to society. I (and you) can very easily name many things that create(d) economic activity that we can both agree are bad for society (let me know if you can't). That doesn't change just because you like the thing, or because you know some arbitrary detail about the thing.

> NFL is artificial and arbitrary literally by definition.

If so, then why does no other sport match its popularity in the US when NFL football isn't in season? If it's so goddamn arbitrary the something like baseball should make as much as it does. Basketball should make as much as it does. Hockey should make as much as it does. However, as marketed as those sports are in the US (and they are heavily marketed), then why don't they match the NFL in viewership and revenue?

>> I enjoy NFL football because it is a showcase of brain

> You enjoy it because you were brought up by society to enjoy it and it was pushed on you from all sides. If you grew up in, say, Iceland, you probably wouldn't know anything about it or care at all.

You don't know a goddamn thing about me. I grew up in The Netherlands watching (the other kind) of football, not in an area where the NFL existed. Maybe stop trying to pidgeonhole people that like things you don't.

Is there a lot of marketing around sports? Yes. There's a lot of marketing around software, video games, pharmaceuticals, fiscal policy, food, and automobiles. Would you say anybody who enjoys cooking for their family "brainwashed by Tyson into liking something they wouldn't like?

Fuck you for assuming

> If so, then why does no other sport match its popularity in the US when NFL football isn't in season?

What does popularity have to do with artificialness? But, anyway, this is where it would be helpful for you to know a little bit about the history of the sport - the answer to your question is readily available with a bit of googling.

> If it's so goddamn arbitrary the something like baseball should make as much as it does.

Basketball is also an arbitrary and artificial sport. Many sports are. By definition.

> I grew up in The Netherlands watching (the other kind) of football,

That's good for you. But it is very obvious that the popularity of american foot ball is mostly due to societal influence. That is why it is popular in the US and almost nowhere else. The history of how and why it is so popular in the US is also readily available - if you're actually interested in that.

> Fuck you for assuming

Relax buddy, we're just having a civil discussion where we happen to disagree, no need to get emotional.

'sacrifice' what exactly lol?

Going the athlete route is generally easier and requires less time investment than going the academic route.

No, I don't think so.

Including practice squad players (who are paid peanuts), the NFL has about 2,240 roster spots. About a million US high school students play football any given year. The average NFL career is 3.3 years.

So from 3.3 graduating classes of a million high school football players, you'd expect somewhere around 0.07% to make it into the NFL. Fewer even will have something resembling a successful career.

Then look at how many high paying "smart person" jobs there are. There are about a million doctors in the US, two million engineers, and four million computer professionals.

Your logic/math doesn't make any sense.

Almost every student studies math, almost none of those ever become a mathematician - who are compensated much less than NFL players.

> There are about a million doctors in the US

Comparing # of doctors to # of NFL players is a very false equivalence. Try comparing # of athletes in all sports combined to number of doctors - that would be more reasonable. Or compare the number of brain surgeons to the number of NFL players - and the difficulty/time in becoming either.

Being a doctor is a much more stressful and difficult job, which requires more years of training/education and provides far more real value for society.

What point are you arguing here? That it’s more difficult to be a doctor than an NFL player? That is highly subjective depending on what one finds “difficult”. For instance my dentist in SF and even primary care or dermatologists don’t have very stressful jobs and although they had many years of schooling, they didn’t have to subject their bodies to the intense and unrelenting physical rigor of first HS football, THEN college football and then the NFL. I would say for low level or intense stress maybe surgeons, oncologists, anesthesiologists or cardiologists have more stress day to day but that’s just my subjective opinion as well, as to them it may be as easy as flying a kite.

So what do you consider difficult? Having a linebacker smash into you at a full sprint over and over in practice and then not choking in a real game? Or studying relentlessly, writing grants, doing essentially free work as a resident for years while being on call. They are just stressful in different ways, but again, different humans have more fitness for one or the other.

One of my best friends is now in a wheelchair for life, thanks to high school football.

You are always taking a risk. Sometimes it's just that it won't work out financially. Sometimes it's more serious than that. It's a small risk, but non-zero. Even successful football players suffer from much higher rates of mental health issues, among other poor health outcomes.

Just because someone takes risks, doesn't mean they deserve exorbitant compensation for that. Lots of people take risks all of the time for much less. Lots of sports, and even non-sport jobs are much more dangerous than playing in the NFL, and compensated much less.

Complaining about NFL players not making enough money is just funny to me.

I didn't say they deserved anything. You said that they don't sacrifice anything. They absolutely do. This is completely independent from a compensation discussion.

I do happen to think that players should probably make more, for the same reason that I think all workers should probably make more, not because of any particular risk reason.

> You said that they don't sacrifice anything.

No, I clearly didn't say that.

Sorry, I didn't realize that you were different than the person I originally replied to, who said

> 'sacrifice' what exactly lol?

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