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Comment by Vivtek | Hacker News Reader

what's with this fixation on Foxconn and Apple?

Apple is the most successful business in history. They have literally billions of dollars in the bank. The fact that they have reached this position by exploiting international labor conditions is dissonant with the glowing opinion of them in the American press. It is seen as hypocritical.

From your tone, I infer that you think you may agree - but that you feel conflict, and conceal that from yourself by lashing out at the messenger.

It is not a valid excuse to say they're Chinese, any more than it is valid to allow West Virginian mine workers to die of black lung to provide cheap heat for Philadelphia.

Injustice doesn't have to be in your own street for it to be injustice.

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Injustice means one thing for me and another for someone living in China. I have no idea what the standard of living is over there for a typical factory worker. Is it better or worse than the alternatives? I don't know. Foxconn could be a pioneer of beter living and working conditions for the country and I'd never know it. I'm biased towards a first world view on these matters. Everything must be considered when doing these types of comparisons, but there is no comparison here, just an editorial on how deplorable working conditions are. Again, at Foxconn in China. I assume Foxconn factories aren't this way in other countries with better labor laws.

My stance is that this is an issue the government needs to resolve. It's unreasonable to expect Apple or Foxconn to do anything about this on their own accord. I doubt they are behaving any differently than any other company with manufacturing operations over there. There's no need to crucify Apple or Foxconn over this.

Injustice means one thing for me and another for a negro. I have no idea what the standard of living is for typical negros. Is it better or worse than the alternatives? I don't know. Confederate cotton farmers could be a pioneer of better living and working conditions for negros I'd never know it. I'm biased towards a Union view on these matters. Everything must be considered when doing these types of comparisons, but there is no comparison here, just an editorial on how deplorable working conditions are. Again, on confederate cotton farms. I assume cotton farms aren't this way all over the country. My stance is that this is an issue the government needs to resolve. It's unreasonable to expect cotton farmers or t-shirt manufacturers to do anything about this on their own accord. I doubt they are behaving any differently than any other company with cotton manufacturing operations. There's no need to crucify cotton farmers or t-shirt manufacturers over this.

Sounds kinda ridiculous when you change a coupla words, no?

The situation for slavery in America was resolved only because of civil war. For the problems that exist in China, the Chinese government's number one fear is that something similar could happen because they can't fix their problems any other way. And while ignorant people in the west may cheer and comment that it's necessary to break a few eggs to make an omelette, that is not a situation that would be considered preferable by any means for anybody.

I always see a lot of people complaining about Foxconn and the like, but nobody offering any solutions that would actually work. It's especially annoying when they don't acknowledge exactly why the problem is so difficult to solve, considering all the political, economic, social, and technological trends that contribute to the problem. IMO, those who criticize the problem, but can't offer any viable solutions, should at least put their money where their mouth is and not contribute to the problem. This means they shouldn't buy any electronics or in fact, shouldn't buy many things. Most stuff is made in China these days, or other countries with similar lax issues.

It's a complicated issue, and I see too much straw man applied to this issue too many times.

Living here, I realize most people have no idea how poor the vast majority of people are in China. I had no idea until I came here. I'm not saying the situation is acceptable. I am saying the situation is too complicated for the commentary we see over and over again.

You're comparing impoverished people taking jobs of their own free will to chattel slavery?

If, as you say, they're impoverished, how free is their will?

Are they 90% free? 50%?

100%. It's not the number or attractiveness of options that make you unfree, it's the guy with the rifle who shoots you if you "quit".

Poverty is the state of nature.

Rural migrant workers in China (who make up the bulk of factory labour) have less rights than people who are residents of the area they are working in. For one, it is very hard (near impossible) for migrant workers to send their children to schools near their workplace. As for free will, you will find many who move to the cities for these jobs are doing so under intense family pressure.

I'm not trying to draw a comparison to slavery, there is actual slavery in Southern China's brick making industry that is truly appalling.

Your railing on this article undermines your whole point. You say that you lack perspective as to what the living conditions are in different Chinese factories -- but you fail to recognize that this article gives you one more data point than you previously had. You gain perspective by having more articles bringing these issues to light a little at a time.

It is also worth noting that the article in question was originally written by a news agency from Shanghai -- it is not an American, outsider-perspective that's painting a scathing picture, it's the Chinese themselves with their own experiences.

> Injustice means one thing for me and another for someone living in China.

Why? That standards of living are higher in some places than others is no reason to be negative about attempts to change the status quo. Drawing attention to this has resulted in improvements, even if there's a long way to go. People always want things to be someone else's problem. The good news is that, looking at history, these things usually get better over time.

> There's no need to crucify Apple or Foxconn over this.

These are their own workers. They are directly responsible for the conditions in their own factories. The notion that it's China, so it's reasonable to expect them to be treated like crap doesn't sit well with me. That may be how things are in much of China, but it says nothing about how things ought to be in China. You could complain that if so, they ought to improve things, but that's exactly what they are doing here: bringing the issues to light so they can be dealt with.

I think he is trying to say that what this journalist is getting paid could be better or worse than other factories, but there's no way to tell reading this article. The author expects the reader to compare it to dollars as stated with the $4 wage. How many Yuan is that, and how many Yuan is a good living over there? I have a friend living in Shenzhen and he gets by on like $0.25 a day, living like a westerner.

And of course you are going to get reprimanded if you don't do your job correctly, e.g. too much oil or inaccurate placement. And of course a new employee won't be good at it at first.

Personally, the most atrocious thing I've read in the whole article is that dirty sheets is commonplace. And frankly, that is common in China.

Right, and Vivtek's point was that it doesn't matter if Foxconn has better working conditions than other factories in China. Lesser of two evils is still an evil.

deelowe seems to have the "if someone's gonna do it, it might as well be us" mentality; as if it was morally ok to exploit labour in China just because China does that to itself.

What we should be looking at is the Purchasing Power Parity. If the Chinese factory workers can afford much less than American factory workers, we should try to make it more fair.

I was in China for a month, there's no way you can get away "living like a westerner" on $0.25 USD/day maybe living like a poor Chinese peasant. But just taking a bus somewhere costs around 15 cents.

> The fact that they have reached this position by exploiting international labor conditions...

Exploitation is not a fact; it's a judgment.

The negative connotations for the word "exploit" (1) are baggage. The word itself does not require a negative interpretation.

Indeed, for the actions of a corporation, failure to exploit is damning evidence of incompetence.

(1) https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aexploit

"Exploit" is an ambiguous term, but in context it's clear what he meant to convey by it.

Is it? Perhaps you could explicitly state what you believe I meant to convey.

Exploitation of a resource is a fact. Treating human beings as an exploitable resource is also a fact - it's the very basis of modern management.

If it has negative connotations, perhaps you should examine why you feel so negatively about it.

If you're referring to the fact without the connotation then it's more accurate to see it's the basis of all human trade dating to prehistoric times and indeed the basis of all entity relationships in the natural world.

  > Apple is the most successful business in history.

So if Foxconn were to make products for lame business all that would be OK?

  > They have literally billions of dollars in the bank.
  > The fact that they have reached this position by
  > exploiting international labor

Ok, if Apple did that by "exploiting international labour", how come other companies doing the same on the same factory are not that successful?

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