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Comment by Swizec | Hacker News Reader

> So, is pile-of-if-statements the best we can do for business software?

You’ll enjoy the Big Ball of Mud paper[1].

Real world systems are prone to decay. You first of all start with a big ball of mud because you’re building a system before you know what you want. Then as parts of the system grow up, you improve the design. Then things change again and the beautiful abstraction breaks down.

Production software is always changing. That’s the beauty of it. Your job is to support this with a mix of domain modeling, good enough abstraction, and constructive destruction. Like a city that grows from a village.

[1] https://laputan.org/mud/mud.html

[2] my recap (but the paper is very approachable, if long) https://swizec.com/blog/big-ball-of-mud-the-worlds-most-popu...

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I'm not sure the author or most people that write these types of academic theory papers ever really see actual ball-of-mud-spaghetti code in real world scenarios.

I think anyone that thinks mudball is OK because business is messy has never seen true mudball code.

I've had to walk out of potential work because after looking at what they had I simply had to tell them I cannot help you, you need a team and probably at minimum a year to make any meaningful progress. That is what mudballs leads to. What this paper describes is competent work that is pushed too quickly for cleaning rough edges but has some sort of structure.

I've seen mudballs that required 6-12 months just to do discovery of all the pieces and parts. Hundreds of different version of things no central source control, different deployment techniques depending on the person that coded it even within the same project.

> I think anyone that thinks mudball is OK because business is messy has never seen true mudball code.

I’ve seen and created some pretty bad stuff. Point is not that it’s okay, but that that’s the job: managing, extending, and fixing the mess.

Yes a perfect codebase would be great, but the code is not perfect and there’s a job to do. You’re not gonna rebuild all of San Francisco just to upgrade the plumbing on one street.

Much of engineering is about building systems to keep the mess manageable, the errors contained, etc. And you have to do that while keeping the system running.

Sure but again you are referring to somewhat structured systems that went off the rails a bit. Thats not what I consider a mudball.

I've seen numerous places trying to hire someone to fix a 5-10 year mudball that has reached a point where progress is no longer possible without breaking something else which breaks something else and so on.

There is an endgame to the mudball and it does end in complete and total development stopping and systems that are constantly going offline and take weeks to get restarted. Most of the time the place will say: "Oh we've already had several consultants tell us the same thing" The same thing being the situation is hopeless and they are facing years of simply untangling the mess they made.

Usually the mudball is held together by a chain of increasingly shorter senior positions that keep jumping the sinking ship faster and faster. Finally they can no longer convince anyone sane to take on the ticking time bomb they have created and they turn to consultants.

Also my advice is often you should bring back person X that was at least familiar with the system at whatever salary they require. I am inevitably told that that person will literally not even take calls or emails from the company any more, every time. Thats how bad a real world mudball is.

This gives me PTSD

First link is broken

https://s3.amazonaws.com/systemsandpapers/papers/bigballofmu...

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