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Comment by ecshafer | Hacker News Reader

When I worked at McDonalds, a major thing I learned is that when 95% of people say they got an order wrong, the customer ordered it wrong without realizing it. Customer says "I want a cheeseburger, plain", Mcdonalds puts that in as "Cheesebuger, no ketchup, mustard, onion or pickle". Customers will take plain to mean a dozen different things.

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I also worked at McDonalds. You example is interesting because this specific issue came up often. Different people interpreted it to mean different things. The cashiers who'd been around the longest had learned to clarify exactly what the customer wants.

Also, this is absolutely NOT a customer issue. It's a restaurant issue to clarify. Plain means different things at different restaurants, so the solution is to _always_ clarify exactly what the customer means.

Every fast food place I've been to, a "plain cheeseburger" includes cheese. However, at every high-end burger place I've been to, "plain" does NOT include cheese. So there is a somewhat standard meaning.

I have this conversation enough that I now call out "plain no cheese" and ensure "no cheese" is written on the ticket.

That's a strange source of confusion. A plain cheeseburger without cheese has a different name: a plain hamburger. I can't imagine saying "cheeseburger", no matter what qualifying words around it, and being surprised it included cheese.

I have a very funny childhood memory of being in a McDonalds with my Cub Scout chapter; one of the boys ordered a "cheeseburger with no cheese", which - of course - was delivered with cheese, and the boy's father escalated the 'situation' to management.

Even more confusing when McDonalds calls them "burgers with cheese". Cheese seems to be a uniquely distinct event.

Also "I'll take a number 3 meal plain" is void of an actual subject for the type of burger.

> Even more confusing when McDonalds calls them "burgers with cheese".

That's a fun regional difference with McDonalds it seems, we definitely have (literally) "Cheeseburger" as a independent item on the menu compared to "Hamburger" here in Spain: https://i.imgur.com/XDNuiUW.png

That's quite funny actually, Spain tends to translate everything and have everything in English, dubbed, but apparently the McDonalds Cheeseburger got to remain, and wasn't renamed to "Hamburguesa con Queso" as one would have expected :)

You're conflating two different things. A plain cheeseburger obviously will include cheese by definition. A "plain" at a "burger place" would mean a plain hamburger. Both are correct usages of the adjective "plain" because the nouns they're describing are inherently different.

The challenge is that there's an indeterminable point at which the "cheese" stops being an integral part of the burger.

For a "cheeseburger" cheese is obviously integral. For a Big Mac, it's less clear but a "plain" Big Mac usually includes cheese.

For a fancy place's "deluxe Wagyu beef burger" that has cheese/truffles/a bunch of other stuff, a "plain" version will likely not have cheese.

McDonald's main menu items aren't actually called "cheeseburgers"; they're called "burgers with cheese". To me, this reads that "cheese" is a "topping" on the burger.

Further, they _only_ showcase the "burger with cheese variant" in their combos and special. This further drives home that you should be thinking about cheese in the same way as toppings.

I don't know exactly, anymore, because I haven't been to a McD for so long.

But one thing I know for sure, in Germany they are called Cheeseburger, not only called, but written as such on the menu.

Wouldn't a "plain cheeseburger" in those high-end burger places where it means no cheese just be a hamburger?

> Customer says "I want a cheeseburger, plain", Mcdonalds puts that in as "Cheesebuger, no ketchup, mustard, onion or pickle". Customers will take plain to mean a dozen different things.

Isn't it up to the person who is receiving the order to ask clarifying questions then? Since they know it's potentially unclear/ambiguous, why not try to resolve the ambiguity before making the order?

That'd just annoy the 99% of people that agree with McDonald's on what plain means. People at McDonald's are often in a hurry, and some would get really annoyed at stupid questions. Better to piss off the 1% than the 99%.

If you're clarifying at this level, there are likely many other questions that you'd ask.

99% of orders are not made incorrectly, and you're being told to go faster and keep times low. Is this the 1 order of the hour that the person will come back and complain that its wrong? Is this person going to come back regardless and say it was wrong to get free food? Its unambiguous enough to not be worth the time.

Be a bit smooth about it: as you type in the order, verbally say out loud what you're entering with other words, then ask them to confirm. No lost time, potentially less people to deal with in the future, win-win.

It's been several lifetimes since I worked in a fast food place (not McDonald's), but at least then, this was how we were trained to do it. Reading the order back like that was required.

Rule #1 at McDonald's: Never customize. If you don't want pickles, take them off yourself. Otherwise they'll just get it wrong.

Whenever I took my kids there I told them "if you don't want it the way they make it then don't order it."

I almost always (except if there is a big queue) customize something, because then it's guaranteed made at the spot, instead of the heated old stuff. And since I started using the kiosks, the orders are always right, and fresh.

A custom order used to be a hack to be sure you got a freshly-made sandwich and not one that had been sitting in a warmer for 15 minutes, but they make everything to order now. And they still fuck them up, often.

And many people are now getting delivery which means another 15 minutes in the delivery vehicle picnic bag.

> but they make everything to order now.

Hard to know for a fact without knowing where I live, I'm guessing :) FWIW, it's not true at McDonalds in Spain, they definitely have popular stuff sitting behind the counter for longer than the items you customize here.

I've customized our McD's orders for my entire life - they mess it up maybe 1/20 times, about the same ratio I'll have to park and wait. Otherwise it's always worked for me!

Even better when the customer just plain orders the wrong thing. I have a vivid memory of my pregnant wife and I at breakfast one morning, and she ordered apple juice. When the waiter brought apple juice she said she’d ordered orange, and when the waitress looked confused, I had to remind my wife she’d ordered apple. Total brain fart on her part (pregnancy brain seems to be a very real thing). Waitress didn’t care, especially after we laughed it off, and brought orange. But I know I’ve undoubtedly done the same thing, so I’m patient with mixups.

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