Hacker News Reader

Comment by rob74 | Hacker News Reader

That can be seen at many levels of society. ICE also prefers to round up harmless immigrants that show up for court hearings, work in fields, wait at bus stations or deliver their children to day care rather than the "dangerous criminals" that they keep on boasting about. And since every illegal immigrant is already a criminal in their view anyway, why bother?

View on HN

Also: Local cops spend their time going after speeders and parking violators who they know won't be dangerous and they can safely farm for revenue, instead of looking for violent crime.

> And since every illegal immigrant is already a criminal...

Not to be pedantic, but by definition it is, isn’t it?

Immigration is a civil matter, not a criminal matter. It's not a crime per se to overstay a visa like say shoplifting or killing someone. It's more like there's a proceeding to determine whether you did overstay and then when there's a finding of fact they basically tell you you have to leave or they remove you from the country forcibly. It would be patently ridiculous to jail someone for overstaying or for working on a tourist visa or for any of a number of these things.

You cannot be more wrong.

Entering the United States without proper documentation, such as a passport or visa, is considered a federal crime under 8 U.S.C. § 1325. This statute criminalizes unauthorized entry, including entering at unauthorized times or places, evading inspection, or misrepresentation to gain entry.

I would love to understand if you truly believed that no such federal statute exists, or we’re just intentionally spreading misinformation.

That is manifestly not the same thing as overstaying a visa. Moreover, not only does it not apply if you’re already found to be in the country illegally you have to be caught in the act of entering - it was amended in 1996 to apply a civil penalty by the same act that created expedited removal (yes, it is not supposed to be in lieu of any statutory criminal penalty that _may_ be applied) and lower court judges have found against the re-entry provisions in 1326 [1]

[1] https://newrepublic.com/article/163419/miranda-du-unconstitu...

The visa is your entry document. The I-94 is your status document[0]. The visa outlines the conditions (including dates) you may enter the country. The I-94 is the record of entry/departure and dictate your required date of departure.

  >  This statute criminalizes unauthorized entry, including entering at unauthorized times or places, evading inspection, or misrepresentation to gain entry.

This is a completely different conversation and scenario that what was being previously discussed. There is a pretty significant difference between illegal border crossing vs overstaying your status. The latter never performed an illegal border crossing. These people are documented.

[0] https://www.uscis.gov/forms/all-forms/form-i-94-arrivaldepar...

And I believe all of this conflation of entering the country illegally with overstaying a visa or violating the restrictions on a visa having passed through a Border Control checkpoint is at the heart of a lot of what's happening right now. The whole concept of "illegal immigration" was expanded to contain this other category of person who went through Border Control properly, they have a passport from their home country with a stamp or a visa, but they are not complying with the requirements of the visa or for the entry stamp. These people are not criminals and many of them have put down roots here and would be model citizens if they had citizenship.

Because ICE is having a lot of trouble finding enough people who crossed illegally to round up and put in concentration camps, they're scouring the country for people in the other category. And in many cases the threat of visa cancellation is being used to suppress political speech. A lot of people don't know that because they don't understand that there's a way to get here legally that doesn't involve getting citizenship or a green card. I think if you've never left the country it probably doesn't occur to you that there's a whole system of checkpoints that you can use to enter the country but almost zero control after that other than your own good faith efforts. And this is true just about everywhere else in the world.

> This statute criminalizes unauthorized entry, including entering at unauthorized times or places, evading inspection, or misrepresentation to gain entry

None of which has anything to do with the matter at hand.

It. Is. Not. A. Crime. To. Overstay. A. Visa.

No. Overstaying a visa or not leaving when temporary protected status is suddenly revoked (or asylum is not granted) is not a criminal offense under US federal law.

Technically it is all about status since a visa is about entry. Like the date on your visa is the window you have to enter the country but you'd have an I-94 or some status forum that dictates the parameters of your stay. (though yeah, everyone just calls this "overstaying your visa") (IANAL but have travel abroad before and well... I was in grad school and conversations about visa and status come up a lot when the majority of students have temporary status and there's a president talking about changing the rules)

>> And since every illegal immigrant is already a criminal...

>Not to be pedantic, but by definition it is, isn’t it?

It is not[0].

Being present in the US without legal status is a civil infraction and not a crime. Unlawful entry is a criminal act however.

That said, the vast majority of undocumented folks entered the US legally and overstayed their visas. Which is a civil issue, not a criminal one.

Those who made an (whether valid or not) asylum claim are legally in the United States until their asylum claim can be adjudicated.

[0] https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/criminal-defense/is-illeg...

If you had read the post you’re responding to, you would have seen that it asserts that the majority of undocumented people in the country actually were documented when they entered the country.

Also it’s poor form to copy/paste the same response over and over, even if you were reading the posts you replied to.

>Entering the United States without proper documentation, such as a passport or visa, is considered a federal crime under 8 U.S.C. § 1325. This statute criminalizes unauthorized entry, including entering at unauthorized times or places, evading inspection, or misrepresentation to gain entry.

Yes. The link[0] I posted with my comment cites that specific law:

   To be clear, the most common crime associated with illegal immigration is 
   likely improper entry. Under federal criminal law, it is misdemeanor for an 
   alien (i.e., a non-citizen) to:

       Enter or attempt to enter the United States at any time or place other 
       than designated by immigration officers;
       
       Elude examination or inspection by immigration officers; or
       Attempt to enter or obtain entry to the United States by willfully 
       concealing, falsifying, or misrepresenting material facts.

   The punishment under this federal law is no more than six months of 
   incarceration and up to $250 in civil penalties for each illegal entry. These
   acts of improper entry -- including the mythic "border jumping" -- are 
   criminal acts associated with illegally immigrating to the United States.
 
   Like all other criminal charges in the United States, improper entry must be 
   proven beyond a reasonable doubt in order to convict.

And in fact, I said:

   Being present in the US without legal status is a civil infraction and not a 
   crime. Unlawful entry is a criminal act however.

   That said, the vast majority of undocumented folks entered the US Legally and 
   overstayed their visas. Which is a civil issue, not a criminal one.

Where did I claim otherwise? Seriously. That's not a rhetorical question.

[0] https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/criminal-defense/is-illeg...

Repeating the same irrelevant statute doesn't make it relevant.

Illegal is not the same as criminal, but a civil violation is still illegal. Someone without lawful status is subject to detention and deportation. A person who overstayed a visa or is otherwise undocumented is, by definition, here illegally and falls under the legal term “illegal alien.”

That's as may be. But that's not what GP said.

It is not the case that "every illegal immigrant is already a criminal," which is what GP claimed.

It’s not ICE’s opinion about who is illegal, it’s congress’s. Didn’t they create the immigration laws that are on the books? I can never understand why people seem to blame the enforcement agencies for the laws they are enforcing.

But I agree with the sentiment that they are selecting the easiest targets.

ICE can make them un-illegal by granting them parole, without further action from congress. AFAIK they can even do it unilaterally, though congress could choose to check them later.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com