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Comment by mrheosuper | Hacker News Reader

For all i care, he represents all the US citizen. He is your president.

I understand the sentiment, and I can't control how fine of a distinction you're making.

In fact, you could legitimately blame people like me for not going further to stop the madness.

In my particular case, that could cost me my job, which means losing health insurance for my family and myself. That's a choice I'm making, for sure. To that extent I'm culpable for this situation.

I’ve aleast applied some logic for all countries with shitty leaders. Russia, or Israel, or Gaza (Hamas) for instance. Who is responsible for the shittyness done by the governments of these countries? The governments, obviously. But when harm starts going to other nations, who is most responsible for stopping that? Surely the answer must be the citizens of that country? We can’t expect, say, Canada, or Zimbabwe, to be the morally responsible people and expect them to go in and stage a coup. If they do, maybe that’s fine, but they can’t be held culpable if they do nothing. The citizens however, must be, as there otherwise is no one else to stop the evil. Now, I include the US in this list too.

So, while it’s true that US citizens are not directly responsible for Trump, there is still a dereliction of ethical duty happening, in my opinion, assuming we agree that Trump is harming other people unnecessarily (which, naturally, many Trump supporters would disagree with.)

Of course, even if I’m right, what does that mean in practice? That random Americans on vacation in Italy can be snatched up and sent to The Hague? No, obviously not. I think the most practical effect is that this should give all Americans pause to think, and to at minimum ensure that they are not contributing to the problem in any way, and better yet, fighting the problem in some way.

Of course, this doesn’t even begin to address the fact that only 1/3 or so of Americans voted for Harris, which was the only choice that actually could have worked to stop Trump. 1/3 voted for him directly, and of course they are responsible, but another 1/3 couldn’t be bothered to vote, so it is actually a supermajority of the American people that are shitty, either because they couldn’t care less about other people, or they actively contributed to the problem.

Not everywhere is a democracy though. I'd hesitate to call even the US a democracy and therefore the government is independent of the will of the people.

For sure. When it's Bush, Obama, Reagan or Kennedy, America is the leader of the Free World and what every other nation should strive to be. When it's Trump the government doesn't accurately reflect the will of the people. /s

Like sure, I get that the above is propaganda spread by the machine, but good luck telling that to the Europeans that have dealt with Americans that believe it; furthermore, I think it's telling that a decade ago, Canadians would wear emblems to distinguish themselves from Americans, lest they be confused for the egocentric and rude Americans.

The first paragraph is propaganda, but Americans haven't exactly denied it, nor have they been humble about their place in the world, or the flaws in their nation. Their actions have instead left many of us of the opinion that Americans actually believe it.

"nor have they been humble about their place in the world"

To be fair - which country has ever been the most powerful in the world and humble about it. The UK certainly wasn't - and after more than a century still hasn't learned that it is no longer exceptional.

The US hasn't been a real democracy since the beginning, due to first past the post. It has nothing to do with Trump, there have been much worse conditions in the past such as the Civil War.

Many Americans do believe it of course, otherwise they wouldn't have voted the way they did.

The specifics of the government don’t matter, insofar as the moral responsibility. A dictator by himself is powerless. He needs many people to prop up and enforce his regime. Of course, it matters a great deal in how the morally responsible people need to behave, and of course I feel more sympathy for people that stand up to Putin vs Trump, because the consequences for them are much more dire, but it doesn’t change the moral calculus.

Since you are a resident of the planet earth, you should hold yourself personally responsible for the political outcomes there.

You took the words out of my mind (mouth would not be able to write so clearly). But here's a question:

> If they do, maybe that’s fine, but they can’t be held culpable if they do nothing. The citizens however, must be, as there otherwise is no one else to stop the evil. Now, I include the US in this list too.

On an abstract level how are the citizens more responsible than random countries? Random countries and random citizens are in the same boat: they have to deal with something they had no simple choice over (at least in totalitarian states).

Mind you I agree with the proposition, but the explanation is not satisfactory.

What a horrible take. I feel compelled to say that in my experience people in northern Europe can empathize with and separate the population from a dysfunctional two-party political system captured by capital.

Most of the world engages routinely in tribal thinking without any form of self-reflection. Northern Europe is a distinct exception due to post-enlightenment and post WW2 cultural norms.

The commenters in this thread engaging in transactional tribalism are angry at Trump supporters in the US (and therefore, all Americans because of their tribal "us vs them" lens) for engaging in the same transactional tribalism that they live in. From a game theory perspective, they want the US and northern Europeans to continue to be the good person in the Prisoner's Dilemma game while they reap the rewards.

As I've said elsewhere in this thread, the comments here actually support the beliefs of Trump's base, which is "the world hates us, only pretends to be nice to us when we help make them rich, and power is the only currency that matters."

There are people in this thread complaining about tariffs on imports in the US that are a fraction of what their own nations charge on imports. They don't seem to grasp that "fairness" is an emotional construct that matters for human voting.

Both sides are the same. Trump and his supporters are the same as people who are their targets .... because it is the same tribalism.

> As I've said elsewhere in this thread, the comments here actually support the beliefs of Trump's base, which is "the world hates us, only pretends to be nice to us when we help make them rich, and power is the only currency that matters."

When you are t like Trump does, yes you will loose the affection and respect.

And besides, Trump and his fans both see those who are friendly to them as suckers to take advantage of.

Your wish to be a bully and simultaneously treated like a friend is extremely unrealistic. And not just that, it is a loosing proposition.

For this lifelong US citizen Trump's death will be one of the happiest days of my life.

Which will be dashed by someone that fills the void, and does so without meaningful opportunity to harass him with litigation.

His motto may end up being “Oderint Dum Metuant”.

I honestly feel that Trump's cult of personality is somewhat unique and largely a result of decades of mystique building like his books "Art of the Deal" and The Apprentice. I don't think he would ever have been elected in 2016 if not for The Apprentice. It will be hard for other people to replicate. JD Vance definitely can't do it.

You ought to care more then, wouldn’t you say? An American has just pleaded with you not to have this attitude and you’ve thrown it back in their face. Hardly a mature attitude or an open mind.

The US is just experiencing what every Russian, Iraqi, Afghani, etc. has been dealing with for a long time.

It’s FAFO writ large, and the US has been ‘exceptional’ for so long they think they can avoid the FO part.

But that’s exactly the point - nobody thinks of the citizens of those countries as being unified behind or synonymous with whoever is in charge.

Clearly you’ve never met people?

And never seen news discussions, sanctions, seen immigration policies, etc?

It may not been as bad and direct as discrimination against the Japanese in WW2, but a ton of people absolutely do discriminate that way.

And let’s not talk about Muslims (or anyone with a turban, like Sikhs) post 9/11.

OK yes I meant no reasonable people. I’m not sure what your point is. That Americans deserve to “find out” terrible things because of their government, but other countries don’t? I was just trying to agree with you that the situations are the same.

Deserve has nothing to do with it.

But it’s the inevitable consequence of what is going on, and it’s going to get worse.

American’s have had a positive PR program for so long, they’re just completely ignorant of what it’s like to no longer have that.

The US has switched from exporting the American Dream to exporting the American Nightmare, and that will have long term consequences.

People are only now starting to wake up to that fact/feel them, but even if we stopped right this second it will take decades for this to play out. And we’re not stopping, but flooring it.

>The US has switched from exporting the American Dream to exporting the American Nightmare, and that will have long term consequences.

This, 100%.

I'm Australian. I grew up playing basketball and watching American TV and movies, even had superbowl parties with friends on multiple occasions, which is pretty rare here in Australia.

Been to the US on holidays. Always got along well with Americans who came here.

Take this free opinion from someone outside the exceptionalist bubble: America is on the decline... and it's going to get worse.

People won't easily forget this grotesque spectacle.

I don't like how people separate themself from "society" when it's convenient for them. You are part of it, whether you like it or not.

And last time i check, Trump won most of the swing state, so a large part of US believe in Trump.

It's also the second time he won.

The comment above says “Friendly reminder to please not confuse the Trump administration with all U.S. citizens.”

Nobody is saying he doesn’t officially represent the USA. It’s about not assuming ALL Americans agree with what the administration is doing. A reasonable ask, no?

You can say that about any country though, of course the leader doesn't represent all of the population, just a majority, if they're a democracy, which is rare these day.

minor nit: The US doesn't require a majority to win the presidency, only a plurality, which was ~32% in the most recent election.†

† https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_States...

The Americans expect the world to constantly make distinctions for them while American foreign policy affects everyone regardless of who individual Americans voted for.

Honestly, if you're not protesting, you're enabling. That's why I dont think all Israelis agree with their government, or all gazaoui agree with Hamas. Protests, regular ones, are happening, on both side. I don't see a lot of those in the US to be fair.

I live in Seattle. You must not be looking hard enough. There are demonstrations every weekend.

I am curious how you choose the breadth of people responsible for stopping Trump in various ways.

For example, does it make sense to blame Americans for their failure to protest every weekend?

If so, then why stop at Americans? Why not blame e.g. all Norwegians as well?

Or why not blame the Americans who merely protest, as opposed to organizing a general labor strike or for not attempting an outright assassination?

My only point is that if you're going to blame some people and not others for the current state of affairs, it would be interesting to understand the justification.

Personally I blame the 2/3 of Americans who must have thought his first term was such a success that they either wanted, or didn't mind him being their leader again.

> Hardly a mature attitude or an open mind.

Not gp, but: sorry, Americans, for whatever voter turnouts, gerrymandering, secret deals, etc, etc.

He's your president. Twice.

In the end as outside I see that you have allowed system to end in place where very divisive candidate won. Maybe if decades ago you had worked towards direction where there was more than two options it could be different... And if the other side would have fielded something that got the other side as passionate as Trump does with his base.

Whatever you say at least Trump has truly passionate base. Or will next Democrat nominee be Harris?

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