U.K. 30-Year Yield Tops U.S. as Pressure Mounts on Government Borrowing
coindesk.com
coindesk.com
But the chart appears to show the black line above the red line quite a few times since 2000? Am I reading it wrong?
No. You're exposing poor reportage and sloppy editing. CoinDesk isn't exactly Bloomberg.
From what I can tell from listening to a lot of UK news still, the country finds itself economically stagnating while suffering from a level of debt that makes debt repayment the second largest chunk of government expenditure after the NHS.
There’s so little room for manoeuvre that successive governments are left tweaking the edges of the budget but unable to carry out any major plans or reforms.
And on the subject of Reform… they think they’re going to axe fat from the administrative budget at every level by emulating Elon Musk, when it’s not clear there is a lot of fat. There’s only so many diversity officers to fire.
Hard to see what the future is there at the moment.
Are you sure about this? If you scroll down to the pie chart on the following page, health is not the largest chunk of expenditure (that’s social security) and interest on debt is fifth.
https://ifs.org.uk/taxlab/taxlab-key-questions/what-does-gov...
But I can also find articles that seem to say the government spent 16.4 billion just in June - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4g2rky498wo
Either way, listening the Today program a few times a week from overseas has possibly warped my view!
Perhaps the constraint is more to do with currency fluctuations and gilt yield rises when it looks like they’re wanting to borrow more.
(Edit - the OBR! Not “The Orb”, though frankly if the orb would like to hold forth on the economy I’d probably listen to them over most commentators…)
> The amount of interest the government pays on national debt also varies from month to month
So your figure for June is not obviously inconsistent with a total of 111 billion per year.
It's like the family drowning in debt who decides to cut mom and dad's weekly trip for Starbuck's Latte at the Farmer's Market. Yet won't look at the two car payments, the USD500000 mortgage, or the private school tuition for the kids. Maybe in their hearts they believe it truly is the way out? But a good financial advisor would probably tell them not to worry about the fly on their toe when there are 4 or 5 elephants stacked on their chests.
And it can be hard to receive those kinds of messages. As hard for individual families as it is for nations.
Every tax cut is a spending program in disguise.
I'm just saying that things like the Park Service are the least of the worries. To the extent that it makes people feel good, please, go ahead and make cuts to the Park Service. But that can't be the plan to restore good financial order. It takes wayyyy more than that if we're being honest.
1) 150 billion per year net new borrowing
2) 115 billion per year interest payments
Conclusion: the effect on the budget of stopping this whole debt thing would be a net cost of either 150 or 265 billion per year (because you "lose" the new debt, but you still have to pay the interest payments), or about triple the current budget cost of debt, or 12% to 21% of the total government budget.
The cost of making the debt fall as fast as it was rising would be 150b + 150b + 115b = 415 billion per year, call it 33% of the government budget.
In contrast, making the problem worse at the current rate has a 3% positive effect on the budget. This will not change in the near future. It's exponential and it itself rises at about 8% per year, in other words, next year it'll be 3.2% (and the government could choose to force the banks' hands to get that down)
In other words: the government will do the opposite of what everyone's suggesting here, regardless of labour vs conservatives. Either party will increase lending and make the problem worse, faster. Why? Simple: they sure as hell aren't about to give up a quarter of the budget, especially when worsening the problem actually still has a positive effect on the budget (and a strong negative effect on the problem). Note that the interest payments are actually the smaller part of this. Not borrowing fresh money is between 60% and 70% of the "cost".
Which also shows that the problem is not the rich. Well, unless you count the government. And yes, I count organizations that spend 10% more than they "can" as rich. If spending more than your fair share isn't being rich, I don't know what is.
Furthermore the "reduce debt" is a trap argument. It ignores forget ... we die. Most of UK government expenditure is labor. In other words, reducing the debt, even just stopping the rise in debt, is effectively asking us to work harder now, in trade for the country being in a (let's be honest - slightly) better position in 10 years. So you're expected to give a lot up now, in trade for giving the rich more money now (and less in the future). But you'll die, and if you're 40 or above, the calculus will show that you'll get more government services before you die at 72 if we let the situation become worse, rather than fix it.
It's still years away from the next election so it's hard to know what economic angle Reform will run on. But it will probably have to be one similar to the 2010 coalition, where the need for spending cuts was explicitly advertised and voted for.
Yes, please invest in the SPAC set up by the sons of Howard Lutnick at Cantor Fitzgerald that buys 30,000 bitcoin from Adam Back:
https://www.ft.com/content/a4a362a6-cc8b-4188-8658-75183a3d6...
Or buy world liberty tokens from Trump:
https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/uae-fund-buys-100-m...
(for context, review the leave vs stay votes by age cohort: https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/15796-how-britain-vot... ; roughly ~500k voters 65+ die every year in the UK: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde...)
Leaving the EU has actually helped that, because the membership payments can now be spent on general costs, and it didn't worsen trade or the economy in any noticeable way.
https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/5922/economics/uk-budget-...
The economy saw no impact from Brexit whatsoever. Remarkable but true. Go look for yourself. The huge deficits are structural and driven by unrestrained immigration and welfare spending combined with the ruinous costs of lockdown, which put the debt load onto an unsustainable trajectory. Instead of being stable after lockdowns ended interests costs started continuously rising as a percentage of the budget.
Labour certainly has not decreased the deficit unless you're counting a "reduction" from lockdown costs.
Five key impacts of Brexit five years on - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdrynjz1glpo - January 30th, 2025
Brexit deal impact in UK is worsening, warn economists - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd988p00z1no - September 17th, 2024
Brexit’s Lasting Damage Is Looking Inescapable - https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2024-03-19/brexit... | https://archive.today/1UJgM - March 19th, 2024
New report reveals UK economy is almost £140billion smaller because of Brexit - https://www.london.gov.uk/new-report-reveals-uk-economy-almo... - January 11th, 2024
Crikey. This is really unmoored from facts and data.
Here's a peer reviewed studies in major economic journals saying Brexit had negative affect on UK.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/iere.12541 - devalued pound https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002219962... - increased prices
Do you have any peer reviewed studies showing that it had no effect? THere's more studies showing decreased trade, huge decrease in foreign investments.
While many in the EU may be sympathetic and forgiving, I sense countries like Germany and France want to ensure the UK rejoins as a far more integrated and dedicated member state than they were before. It doesn’t seem like the UK has much bargaining power in any potential application to rejoin.
The bull case for the UK is that they have an educated, English-speaking workforce and a stable legal system for protecting property rights. As they become poorer and poorer, you will be able to hire their talent cheaply as their standard of living further erodes.
Otherwise, I really don't see a lot of growth possibilities on the horizon. It is crab-mentality of taxing their richest citizens and companies ever more, but the juice is running out of that orange. So fundamental reform will eventually occur, over the shrieks and howls of the left. Reform UK is highly likely to win the next election. This isn't to say they will actually solve anything, but the pivot to the extreme right after a huge win for the left is a symptom of larger societal problems and widespread hand-wringing.
If I had to pick one obvious economic problem with the UK it would be the vast economic disparity between London and most of the rest of the country and the unwillingness of successive governments to invest any significant amount of money in tackling it.
There is no cheap solution. Cutting taxes on the rich won’t magically grow the economy. That requires actual investment. However, as Liz Truss showed while trying to do something different, it’s very hard for the government to invest when any increase in borrowing leads to panic and a crash in the markets.
However, I think the episode illustrates how economic policy can be overly constrained by the short term reactions of markets. Though I think Liz Truss's economic policy was stupid, she was PM and should have been able to execute it. It's good that the policy was reversed, but this happened for the wrong (undemocratic) reasons.
But keep talking like this and maybe they will join Reform so you can try them out again.
No, go read up on it. There was a chain reaction in the pensions market caused by over-leverage. Similar issue to 2008. Truss wasn't aware of it.
Now that doesn't excuse over-spending. Of course she should have been cutting costs rather than just lowering taxes. But apparently there aren't any British political parties willing to lower costs. Eventually the IMF will have to force the issue.
Why hasn’t the same thing happened under Labour? For various reasons, (not least that their economic policy isn’t stark raving bonkers), but largely because they’ve taken very explicit care to reassure the markets and make sure that no-one is surprised or alarmed: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/oct/18/infrastructu...
Same thing hasn't happened under Labour because steps were quickly taken to end the crisis in the pensions sector. But the underlying problem remains that high spending isn't viable forever.
FWIW, Labour's economic policy is much worse than Truss' ever was. UK is heading for a massive crisis that makes the mini-budget LDI blowup look like a storm in a teacup. Labour have not only not reassured the market, they are actively antagonizing it as can be seen in the yields that are now persistently higher than during Truss. Labour backbenchers won't let the UK cut spending and bondholders are starting to think they won't get their money back. They are right to worry.
Whether or not someone was able to foresee the exact specifics is irrelevant. Everyone who knew anything knew that the budget would have catastrophic consequences.
You don’t have to like Labour’s economic policy, but it’s rather a weak argument to insist that it will eventually lead to an even bigger crisis that the Truss-induced crisis that has actually happened. So far it hasn’t. Isn’t economic policy essentially the art of delaying crises, in any case?
The workforce and legible but only occasionally officially perverted legal system are valuable, sure, but it's the 2020s. Plenty of places can offer that. As for the pivot to the right, it's a net gain for all UK citizens who don't outwardly present as a minority or can hide it, since they can suck up to one of the few big petroleum and food exporters at a discount.
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* footnote: It should go without saying, but Trumpism is just an expression of pre-existing vast sociocultural forces.
No it is not highly likely at all.
People who say this simply do not understand the depth of the structural challenge involved in getting from four MPs to 326 (or 325 or so if you delete the odd non-active MP).
Even if they get close but no cigar and secure a coalition it would be with the Conservatives, whose failures will not be forgotten soon.
I think it is wholly possible, alas, that Reform will see a hundred or so MPs and be the official opposition. But it should not be overstated that the Liberal Democrats will sooner offer to be in a coalition with Labour, and the country tolerate that again from them, than allow Reform the chance to undo Labour's work.
And that is before you consider that, ahem, the shine is off Reform's chums in the USA already and that situation is not going to get better soon. Reform would need a massive amount of money -- Musk money and sketchy crypto money, basically -- to get anywhere, and Trump's orange thumb on the scale with US social media firms. And we don't like that stuff. I cannot stress enough how badly that kind of intervention would go for them.
There are not many people in the UK who would say that Starmer's win was a "huge win for the left". Especially Labour voters. The "left" doesn't have much to do with it. Centrism, sanity, and the hope for an end to grift and stupidity and cruelty do. The failings of the right -- of idiots like Liz Truss and Brexit -- have more.
Reform fielded a candidate in essentially every constituency in 2024 and got five elected. One of them is sitting as an independent already because he's under investigation for corruption.
Yes, Reform got a huge swing in the local (council) elections, and some people think that is predictive. But historically it's nowhere near as predictive as Reform voters would like.
Reform fielded candidates in essentially every constituency in 2024 and only five of them were elected. One is already sitting as an independent because he’s being investigated for pretty serious fraud and the party will not stand by him.
Again: the polls do not and cannot reflect just how difficult it would be to get from four MPs to 326.
What happened is simply that conservative voters stayed home. Massive vote abstention.
- Labour lost 0.5M votes (2024: 9.7M)
- Conservatives lost 7.1M votes (2024: 6.8M)
- Reform (new party) gained 4.1M votes (2024: 4.1M)
- LibDems lost 0.2M votes (2024: 3.5M)
- Greens gained 1.0M votes (2024: 1.8M)
- SNP lost 500k votes (2024: 0.7M)
I suppose anyone counting Reform on the right should also count Green on the left, so the "left group" (Labour+Green) got more votes than the "right group" (Tory+Reform). The split vote is what caused the massive change in parliament though, a proportional result would be about even left/right with LibDem as kingmakers.Tis a silly place.