Hacker News Reader

Comment by learc83 | Hacker News Reader

>So it's not like you get indoctroinated, but then again, I'm not sure if I trust some states in the US to maintain that separation properly

I'm not really sure what this article has to do with the US, but what you're talking about is not up to individual states in the long run.

>separation of state and church should still serve as a safe guard against introduction of any religious/politiacal topics.

How does separation of church and state prevent the introduction of political topics?

> Wwat they teach you in that subject is more or less common sense stuff

Most schools in the US have at least something similar, but how does that matter at all? Just because the US and Japan have something that could be called "moral education", it doesn't mean that something called "moral education" in Hong Kong would be similar.

View on HN

No, the article has nothing to do with the US. It's just that it got me thinking because I live in the US, that's all. Wherever you live, you take certain things for granted. Being an immigrant, I've been interested in finding things that I took for granted, and this article helped me find one, that is the moral education as a teaching subject in school.

And you are right, I take back the "political topics" part.

I also didn't know that "most schools in the US have something similar." This is from a parent of a 2nd grader in California --- I guess I better pay more attention on what my kid is learning, eh? What is this subject called in the US? I'd love to find out more about what that teaches and what that doesn't.

Wrt "not up to individual states", my understanding is that the states are responsible for the K-12 education curriculum, and so if there's moral education in K-12, I'd assume the state education board controls what goes in there. Am I wrong on this?

> my understanding is that the states are responsible for the K-12 education curriculum, and so if there's moral education in K-12, I'd assume the state education board controls what goes in there. Am I wrong on this?

Separation of church and state is a Constitutional matter, and therefore enforced by the federal government. Individual states don't get a say. If they refuse, the federal government will seize control.

This is what happened with racial desegregation of schools. After the Supreme Court ruled in Brown v. Board of Education that "separate but equal" was a violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, Arkansas Governor Orval Faubus called in the Arkansas National Guard to physically block black students from entering the white school (which had already admitted them). President Eisenhower sent in Army troops and federalized the Arkansas National Guard, overriding Faubus's authority.

"Separation of church and state" is absolutely not a Constitutional matter. That phrase comes from a letter written by, IIRC, Thomas Jefferson.

The constitution says "Congress shall make no law concerning an establishment of religion..." and that's all. It has, or should have, no bearing at all on the actions of state legislatures; if I recall correctly, at least one state still had an official church at the time the Constitution was ratified.

Furthermore, it has essentially nothing to do with the Fourteenth amendment, except maybe a few idiots who tried to use religion to justify racism.

> The constitution says "Congress shall make no law concerning an establishment of religion..." and that's all. It has, or should have, no bearing at all on the actions of state legislatures

The Constitution does not explicitly state it, but the Supreme Court has a long history of rulings interpreting that part of the Constitution which have explicitly dealt with it, going back to the 1800s. Those cases include Reynolds v. U.S., Everson v. Board of Education, Engel v. Vitale, Epperson v. Arkansas, and Lemon v. Kurtzman. In a common law system, as that used in the US, these rulings have the force of law. As they were Supreme Court rulings, they apply to the entire country and overrule any state laws.

> Furthermore, it has essentially nothing to do with the Fourteenth amendment, except maybe a few idiots who tried to use religion to justify racism.

Read what I wrote again. I wasn't suggesting any connection between separation of church and state and the Fourteenth Amendment. I was merely giving an example of when the federal government directly intervened in the public school system and overrode state authority in order to enforce federal laws and judicial rulings.

  > It has, or should have, no bearing at all on the 
  > actions of state legislatures;

Almost all of the Bill of Rights, including Amendment I, have been held by courts to be "incorporated" against the states as a consequence of Amendment XIV.[1].

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_of_the_Bill_of_Ri...

>What is this subject called in the US? I'd love to find out more about what that teaches and what that doesn't.

It's not a specific subject, but usually something built into the overall curriculum. It's generally called character education: here's the relevant link for CA http://www.cde.ca.gov/eo/in/se/charactered.asp

Here's the relevant link for my state (Georgia). https://www.georgiastandards.org/standards/GPS%20Support%20D...

>Wrt "not up to individual states", my understanding is that the states are responsible for the K-12 education curriculum, and so if there's moral education in K-12, I'd assume the state education board controls what goes in there. Am I wrong on this?

You are correct. However, if a state does something that clearly violates the Constitution, e.g. a state promoting a specific religion, it would eventually end up before the supreme court.

Thanks. These are interesting (and the difference between Georgia and California is far greater than I would have thought.)

If anyone is interested, http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/taku77/papers/thes595.htm provides a reasonably comprehensive but short enough coverage of what the moral education subject looks like in Japan.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com