Should you take creatine? | Hacker News Reader

Should you take creatine?

economist.com

40 pointsAnon8472 comments

Note that in the US, there is one company that produces and sources its creatine from the US. This company is CON-CRĒT. The rest is almost exclusively sourced from and produced in China.

One exception, though they'll not reveal their source company, is VitaminShoppe, which has one single version sourced from US. That is Kre-Alkalyn.

NOW, LifeExtension, etc, all of them, along with the majority of their other products are sourced from China, with NOW, in my opinion, the only one conducting rigorous testing to ensure product integrity. The supplement industry in general has become a product of China.

This is up to the individual to glean meaning from, but it remains reality.

For those interested, my inquiries with Life Extension were met with flagrant hostility. Those with NOW resulted in a long, amiable conversion with someone in direct, frequent contact with research scientists. Hostility is more common than friendliness with the dozens of inquiries I've made, but mostly when pressed past the initial superficial aloofness of the template reply.

Edit: with our corporatism paradigm, product origins are increasingly difficult to determine, with many companies now excluding origins from product labels, but most using weasel words, eg "Proudly packed in the US from globally sourced ingredients", which has one meaning which has nothing to do with the US. As one of myriad examples, go into a Treacherous Joe's and try to find origins for their teas. Pay attention and you'll see this behavior is expanding into many products, and actual food products.

For an alternative consider the German-made Creapure, on which a large chunk of creatine monohydrate research has been performed.

I did, but found indication they were sourcing from China, which is the general rule in Germany now for most things. I haven't formally pursued it though. Regardless, it does seem of good quality.

My first choice, being in the US, is still either of the two previously mentioned. Creapure seems a good option if needed.

I would like to avoid China, too, and it looks like Creapure is good. From their site (https://www.creapure.com/en/how-creatine-produced):

"Production in Germany in our own production plant

Creapure® is produced in Germany in a production facility specifically designed to eliminate the risk of cross-contamination and contamination by other products. Not all creatine supplements are subject to the same strict manufacturing standards as Creapure®. Look for the Creapure® logo as a seal of quality. Renowned manufacturers of food, nutritional supplements and sports nutrition products use Creapure® and other high-quality ingredients from AlzChem to produce food supplements to be sold in stores or online."

After re-reading this, I thought maybe they had fooled me with the AlzChem reference, but AlzChem is also in Germany.

They list many brands that use their creatine. Momentous in the US is one that I've heard of before and their price is good ($30/lb (450g). Better than the alternative I've been buying.

https://www.livemomentous.com/products/creatine-monohydrate

I took creatine in combination with weight training and got stronger. But I was never sure what proportion to attribute to the creatine vs the training itself. I stopped taking it for a few weeks and got ~10% weaker again. And then, after resuming creatine, I was back to where I was. From that point I was fairly convinced that yes, creatine actually does something.

I can't say I noticed any cognitive changes though.

A 10% in strength drop after stopping creatine intake seems like quite a bit. Creatine certainly helps out in resistance training (if you're a responder), but generally by way of maaaybe being able to add another rep to a set at a given weight or maaaybe being able to add 2-3% more weight to a given set. This has cumulative effects, of course, but I wouldn't expect such a steep decline.

Unless you are a super-responder, that is!

I'd like to emphasise that my ~10% figure is very vibes-based and I don't have hard numbers to back it up (I don't track my progression in great detail - and even if I did, I am sample size 1). My max rep counts for bodyweight exercises definitely went down, and I reduced the weight I was lifting to hit the same rep counts as before.

TFA says

>One review paper from 2017 concluded that creatine can give athletes a 10-20% performance boost in brief bouts of high-intensity exercise, such as sprinting past a defender or lifting heavy weights.

TFA is non a scientific journal, but summarizing/editorializing results from scientific journals. They don't cite their sources for that particular claim, but it appears to be from this^1 journal, which itself is an overview of other research. The "10-20%" number comes from this^2 2003 review of existing research on creatine that states 70% of the existing research at that time showed statistically significant results and give some example numbers of performance gains with regards to resistance training in the 5-15% range. However, I believe that's just an example from one study out of the many reviewed and I don't have access to more than the abstract. Not that I'd have the scientific/statistical knowledge to properly interpret the meta-analysis, anyway, but ..point being that "10-20%" number from the article can be misleading (surprise, surprise).

1: https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-017-...

2: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1022465203458

I'm a strong believer in the "no free lunch principle"

Through a lifetime of experiences with different substances, the body always adjusts to whatever you're taking. Taking a stimulant? the brain will down regulate dopamine receptors. Putting lotion on your face? The skin will produce less oils.

There is always a downside

Rather than excess in one area, we should strive for perfect balance.

I don't know, that's a strange concept; what about cleaning your teeth? Should I stop using fluoride toothpaste to strengthen my teeth naturally?

edit: on a second thought... it IS making the frogs gay... so.. maybe

Get the sensodyne with novamin, it works drastically better than fluoride alone

Is eating plenty of carbs to have good performance during exercise a “free lunch”? It’s more like it’s just optimising what you eat to give the body what it needs during exercise, no?

Creatine is pretty much in that category. It’s just a natural source of energy, essentially. You get it in some food as well. And you don’t get much benefits unless you’re doing strength exercise.

There may be some benefits for the brain as well, especially in older individuals. I doubt that there’s any significant downsides in general.

Drinking water? The body will get more and more thirsty!

Taking vitamin supplements because the modern diet doesn’t provide all the nutrients your body needs? The body will start demanding more vitamins!!

clearly you dont have the critical thinking skills to understand my post

it is difficult to be empathic when your post starts with a flawed premise.

This is demonstrably false in a lot of cases. For example, if you eat excess calories your metabolism wont adjust. You’ll just get fat.

No, you actually do have a lot of leeway in how much you eat, where you body stays the same weight, because the body adjusts how much energy it uses. Also "excess calories gets you fat" might be a circular argument or truism or whatever, as in excess calories is excess only because it gets you fat.

So there’s no way to gain or lose weight. I see

Lol. I was actually debating whether to add something like “Obviously, once you get past a certain point, you start gaining or losing weight”. I figured it would be obvious and I wouldn’t have to say it but apparently not.

It's non-obvious because it completely undermines your point

It does not. Either you didn’t read my post or you don’t know what leeway means. The idea is your body tries to keep you at the same weight by adjusting its calorie usage. Not a complicated concept. And not a complicated concept to understand that the body can only adjust so far before being forced to put on weight or lose weight.

No one eats excess calories as any type of supplement or natural enhancement, so your example does not work as a counterpoint to the free lunch principle.

So you’re arguing that the free lunch principle doesn’t apply to lunch?

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/bulking

>There is always a downside

Are you claiming that the downsides of creatine outweighs the benefits, or only that there's some non-zero amount of "downside"?

Eating food? You'll eventually die.

I share your concern and I'd add one more:

The motivation behind wanting to be 10% stronger will (probably not) go away after starting a creatine regime. So where do you go from there? Testosterone? Steroids? I can't speak for anyone else but when I work out I am usually trying to meet or beat my last session (despite the march of death) so I think I'm at risk of going too far with supplementation.

I once had a headache and thought about taking an aspirin, but you know if I take an aspirin and feel 10% better, I'll want to feel even better so I'll then just have to take meth, there's no other possibility.

I would hope it's the knowledge of testosterone having significant side effects that would stop you from wanting to take it, not the fact that you haven't taken creatine yet.

You wait two years for the drugs that inhibit the muscle growth inhibitor hormone to get through clinical trials and then do a mounjaro plus the inhibitor inhibitor cocktail to cut fat amd grow muscle with limited work i thought everyone knew this,.....;)

> Putting lotion on your face? The skin will produce less oils

dont you want the skin to produce less oils? so you dont get such an oily nose and such for example

Dry cracked skin is a lot worse for your health. The body is producing oils for a reason

And yet...

The people I know with radiant, flawless skin all use Asian-style skincare with a meticulous nightly regime of like 10 syrups, oils, and unguents.

Everyone I've ever met who says that people shouldn't use shampoo/lotion/face wash because it makes the body stop producing oils has been NOT as attractive - putting it kindly.

if they stop the skincare routine, it will take years to recover to baseline

I can recommend the science vs Podcast. They did an episode on it.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/creatine-a-hack-to-get...

As per usual: supplements are not that marvelous as the influencers say.

I recommend this "Stronger by Science" episode on it: https://www.strongerbyscience.com/podcast-episode-117/

What happens when a Pro Climber takes Creatine for the First Time?

https://youtu.be/0VMQk8Box-U?si=0mD26i5P8xVVsE6x

Yes, if you are healthy and active, creatine is safe and proven to be effective.

And if you're older, creatine supplementation along with regular resistance training and well-balance diet may offset muscle mass loss that happens as we age (age-related sarcopenia).

There are also cognitive benefits:

- memory enhancement

- processing speed and attention

The brain is extremely energy demanding and creatine:

- increases cellular energy reserves (ATP)

- improves neurotransmitter function (e.g. increasing synthesis of neurotransmitters like acetylcholine)

- reduces oxidative stress damage to brain cells

- enhances synaptic efficiency and plasticity crucial for learning

There is some disagreement how effective it is among the running community, because creatine tends to add a few pounds of water weight.

it wrecks my guts. so, no.

When I first took creatine from an Amazon dealer I had gut problems. I later bought a "micronized" creatine (similar to https://bulevip.com/es/3418-optimum-nutrition-creatina-powde...) and did not experience any gut problems. Taking the same product now for 3 years. Inbetween I used some other variant from time to time and have the theory that some vendors sell a not clean product that interferes with your gut.

It does that to me, on occasion. It's usually due to taking too high a dose at once and/or taking it in combination with caffeine. Now, it's not a guarantee that those conditions mean I'll get some gastrointestinal discomfort, but they certainly increase the likelihood.

How much did you try taking?

I take 5mg a day with no side effects. I think this and dietary fiber are probably the only supplements worth taking. I have yet to find another supplement that has any noticeable effect but I’m happy to try if people have recommendations.

IMO The best supplements to any lifestyle are

* 2-3 days a week strength training

* 1-2 days a week of cardio

* Good sleep schedule

* creatine

* dietary fiber

* positive attitude even if you have to fake it some days (this is the hardest supplement imo)

At least that’s my belief.

I agree and I do all that as well. I started with the creatine a few years ago and have never had any issues which is why I was wondering if, for the people who experience them, the amount causes the stomach issues or the brand or just the creatine of any kind.

Yes I definitely have heard from others that they don’t agree with the cheap creatine but like the expensive stuff isn’t that expensive. Like I think I pay like 30€ for a couple months worth. I think people really undervalue what a good strength training and cardio routine does for you. It really helps control anxiety, keep me sleeping well, and helps me focus at work, as well as have a hang out spot with other people who come regularly. And it’s like 4-5 hours a week tops. Highly recommended.

That's a good point. I also used to have problems with >10g/day, but when slowly ramping it up (and not taking it all in one dose of course), I can get to 20g/day pretty easily.

I think there’s not much benefit over 5g/day.

To myself it's darn odd to read these sort of stories ... since it was just over 30 years ago when I used it with the idea it would hopefully strengthen some of my weakened neck muscles via the serious whiplash due to a cycling accident. I only did so after reading the various studies on it and after an article in New Scientist was examining how safe and beneficial it might be to older people in nursing homes. I used a lower dose rate than body builders at the time.

The take away after taking it for a number of months - use quality creatine - unflavoured 100% or of high analysis with minor impurities. (Yes some is cheap and nasty, regardless of what the shop is charging - these days I would recommend purchasing from a pharmacy or equivalent.) Ensure the dose is completely dissolved in the water / fluid before being swallowed and not just a cordial suspension.

After a while I noted benefits apart from helping sore and tired skeletal muscles - gut seemed to work better - a much calmer state of mind / more mellow, way less chewing over whichever idiot said and did - the serious near continuous cold that had plagued me for more than a couple of years, was finally beaten, even after I stopped using it.

Safe cheap and effective. If you lift, you should take it. A lot of people mentally group creatine with a anabolic steroids. Not even close. Creatine effects are small, but measurable. Anabolic steroids effects are huge and impossible to miss.

bodybuilders once again 10-20 years ahead of mainstream science

that's not a bad idea - if you want to trial a potentially dangerous substance on people, put out some rumours that it will help you lose weight, gain muscles, makes your pp longer, etc, and there will never be a shortage of young men willing to give it a go.

ten years later, you have your study.

Once again?

I know the science. But I know three people who take/to it. All three of them had hair trouble after. Again: I know the papers. I still won't touch it.

Hair trouble? Like they lost their hair?

Hair loss is widely attributed to creatine. With several studies out there saying that there's no connection.

I havent noticed that yet and ita been a half a year. Kind of sad, would save me the trouble of shaving it off every couple months

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44554678

It gave me crazy nightmares

Sure it wasn't Magnesium?

100% positive

Creatine for responders slightly improves your leverages by increasing water in muscles, which translates to a few % more weight or few more reps. Guestimate, 5% for weight, 10% for reps on higher rep sets. Which is to say it gives a little more headroom for intermediate/advanced lifters who needs to start dialing in program /volumes/recovery/diet in to progress. A few % of intensity or reps per set across training block makes all the difference. Which makes creatine pretty good no shit supplement if you taking lifting remotely seriously as a hobby when it cost $30-60 per year when bought bulk. Ultimately it's deciding if you're willing to shell out $5 a month to look a bit more swole, have slightly more headroom programming/dietting, or if programming and diet on point, lift slightly more than you otherwise would with the extra water balloon leverages. It's like the cheapest pay to win, pay for slight boost in gym ego/self esteem supplement along with a caffeine, which for many is enough.

I got a little worried after reading some reports on Reddit about creatine and hair loss.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com