The secret code behind the CIA's Kryptos puzzle is up for sale | Hacker News Reader

The secret code behind the CIA's Kryptos puzzle is up for sale

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91 pointselahieh53 comments

I've spent a fair amount of time on K4, and my conclusion is that it's simply a poor puzzle. At this point 24 of 97 characters have been revealed, and yet there's seemingly still not enough information pointing to how the known plaintext corresponds to the ciphertext. Over the decades everything reasonable has been tried and eliminated, which means the solution is likely to be unreasonable.

Probably correct. Different from the other cyphers, the number of symbols is short, and correlating part of the plaintext that has been revealed gives poor measures for the full string length. It has been said that the other solutions are required to solve K4, so if the solution relies on something like character alignment, matrix coding or an even more convoluted permutation arrangement, this can look (or directly be) a one-time pad cypher which are arguably the most difficult to solve.

Does it’s S shape, or the shadow it casts or any other physical representation of it have to do with the message?

Well, outside of Sanborn and his collaborators, who knows. When the puzzles were first revealed and people started trying to crack them, some of them explored out of the box approaches like the design of the sculpture, odd-shaped letters, shadows of the symbols, it's geographic position, etc. However eventually all first 3 turned out to be classic cryptographic algorithms (Vigenere for K1 and K2, transposition for K3), with the information to solve them contained within the cyphertext of the sculpture. For K4, Sanborn has hinted that this may not be the case.

is it hinting at S-Box?

I'm inclining to this too. I heard about it first on Usenet in the 90s, and started looking at it again seriously in June 2017 when I came across the Bauer paper.

But after the 2020 clues (another 13 letters), it became clear that it wasn't any single ACA cipher type, and it was probably something very difficult (because of K4's very low index of coincidence, i.e. 0.036 just below "random" 26-letter text at 1/26, plus the huge number of revealed plaintext letters "in place" i.e. letter-for-lettter correspondence).

That plausibly left a combination of two or more well-known cipher types, but if they were somewhat complex ciphers, the chance of solution would be rather remote.

Hence I always thought a "good" end to the puzzle would be like the book "Masquerade" by Kit Williams where the only guy in cahoots with the creator (Bamber Gascoigne) thought the initial puzzle was an unrealistic challenge, but Williams released clues which enabled two schoolteachers to solve it. So that part was satisfactory, even if hardly anybody remembers the solvers' names!

In contrast, the cribs for K4 haven't helped at all.

What makes a puzzle like this “unreasonable?” Like would it be a sort of “you had to know that you needed a bit of graffiti on a truck stop stall outside Anchorage” unfair scope issue or is there a different kind of unreasonable I cannot currently imagine?

A one time pad would be unreasonable.

Edit: Unless the one time pad is a well known relative document, such as the Declaration of Independence.

Would that be akin to me offering a hash string as a puzzle and asking for the 10GB video file as the solution?

Sort of. A one time pad does not destroy data, but a hash will.

Wikipedia has a good example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-time_pad

In their example, "HELLO" is the plain text, "XMCKL" is the key, and the ciphertext is "EQNVZ". However, with a one time pad, an equally plausible plain text is "later" with the key "TQURI". Thus, without anymore data, it is simply impossible to know what the original message is.

Was the 10GB video file never released anywhere and is stored in a now bit rotted old HD in your basement?

Reasonable puzzles can be worked out (albeit maybe with a lot of work) with information provided by the puzzle or available somewhere in the environment.

Unreasonable puzzles (like some old Sierra games cough) are impossible without secret inside knowledge by the puzzle maker and/or brute force. And sometimes not even with brute force.

The hash/video example might just be an Easter egg hunt requiring looking across a wide set of videos (somewhat reasonable but boring), or completely unreasonable depending on circumstances.

There are SO many things he might have done, with no pre-determined rules. Like, algo-scramble.

Starting with the n-char plaintext, make it a loop. Now move the second letter two places to its right, the third three places, and so on ... until arriving at the original nth letter (painted red?) Or, starting with the digits of pi, move the second letter 3 to the right, the third 1, the fourth 4, und so weiter.

Doing a frequency on 97 weird letters wouldn't help much.

It's easy to make a puzzle that's hard. "Guess the number in my head" is hard. It's not fun for the solver or reasonable. "Unscramble this text which was XORed with the Windows 3.1 solitaire EXE" is likewise.

Good puzzles, even hard ones, should have some idea which way to approach them and should offer a method of attack other than brute force.

Here's what's up for sale from RR Auction

https://www.rrauction.com/jim-sanborn-kryptos-k4-solution-au...

The Wired piece has Sanborn saying the reserve should be "around $300,000."

It sounds like Sanborn really doesn't think it'll be solved before the auction date of 20 November (his 80th is on 14 November). If it does get solved due to this publicity bump, that's huge earnings foregone.

Perhaps he knows it is still an "unreasonable" challenge even with the 24 known letters.

Here's an essay I wrote 15 years ago about another "unreasonable" puzzle:

https://blog.rongarret.info/2009/12/worst-puzzle-ever.html

Also, another example of an "unreasonable" challenge - the "Decipher Puzzle" https://cisa.umbc.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/468/2017/09/S... -- from 1983 to 1985.

You would think that one of the lessons of that is that someone could jump in right at the end and solve it after several clues were released. That hasn't worked with K4, which is increasing people's skepticism.

> These cryptographic systems were not designed by the sculptor himself but by Edward Scheidt, who retired as chairman of the CIA’s Cryptographic Center in 1989.

The article left me with a nagging question: Doesn’t the designer of the codes deserve a share of the proceeds of the auction? He’s still alive according to Wikipedia. It sounds like the unsolved code is what makes the art especially valuable. Was the cryptographer’s effort a “work for hire”, so he doesn’t get anything from the sale?

Good point, and it's also entirely possible the code designer just did a terrible job. e.g. around 57:00 of https://youtu.be/JOXPYkjvDaA

As Kryptos gots a huge amount of media attention in 1999, references to him changed from "chairman of A cryptographic center" to "chairman of [THE] CIA's cryptographic center" when it doesn't even seem that it has such a center.

And the featured story (around 52:00 of the video) has him apparently claiming credit for helping solve a Caesar cipher!

https://web.archive.org/web/19990501000000*/http://www.tecse...

I have discovered a truly marvelous solution to this code, which this text box is too small to contain.

what text box

https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/miscellany/fermats-last-mar...

I know. The difference is, his scribbling was FOUND in the margin — but the comment had no text box when it was read :)

What _is_ a comment? A comment is born from a blank text box, does it lose all aspects of being a text box once it is submitted? Does a small amount of the text box remain deep within a submitted comment?

Up vote for reference to Fermat!

It seems the solution will continue to iqlude us.

1. Stand at first light: face EAST, then NORTHEAST. Let the BERLIN CLOCK choose; read where the shad 2. Make a narrow breach of light; hold still; as the edge moves, letters awaken and the sealed doorw 3. Four passes: hours, hour, minutes, minute. Read on each sweep; the rising sun will order what see

He is an artist, not a mathematician. It’s a physical reveal for this layer of the copper onion.

4. At dawn I stood east then northeast, counting by the clock; the rim's shadow wrote the hidden lin 5. First light, east to northeast. Copper grid in shadow. Sample on the beats. Write only what the l 6. Trust the clean edge, not the flicker; the mind finds patterns, but the edge alone reveals the me

Perhaps a 3D artist can model it and run some simulations with light.

K5 is instructions something like: Head for the wall facing north; use the rim’s shadow as the clock. Berlin is the light.

So head north of it and use the shadows rim and 4/4/11/4 reveals and the Berlin clock sequence. Maybe on NOVEMBER NINE AT DAWN if you simulate it.

K6 is something like NOON HERE CENTER ON THE NORTH RIM; THEN READ THAT.

I don’t know if it ends.

Since nobody wants to play with me… if you have something beefier than my 386, you should have enough to finish. Remember it is always 5:55 somewhere- even in Berlin.

Partial answer: FACE EAST THEN NORTHEAST. LET THE BERLIN CLOCK CHOOSE; READ EDGE TO EDGE TO FIND THE FINAL CODE.

K4 可能由类 Vigenère 层加柏林钟的基5转置构成；我以已知 crib 为锚点，运行搜索，并利用 IC、χ² 与 n-gram 收敛到英文分布。

K4 changes it’s methodology DRASTICALLY and you must use clues like a riddle from previous solutions. The Morse code is the program to run. Make a mask from the unneeded E’s but don’t discard them, they clarify. Ignore the flicker see the edg-e. The grid becomes a compass with some work and be sure to normalize the directions. Caesar might help dispel the mist. Decoys abound in partial/incomplete solutions. One wrong turn and work disappears. My 386 was an abomination to the old man and he set traps- paper and pencil ruled his world.

NORTHWEST, EAST, NORTHEAST. BERLIN CLOCK TICKS EAST. READ EDGE TO EDGE; SEE TIME, USE THE NORTHEAST SHADOW. THE HIDDEN PLACE IS REVEALED.

Sorry for the bother

Here it is. It drove me crazy losing sleep

ATEQUINOXREADEDGETOEDEASTNORTHEASTFACETHENLETEDGEORDERBYTHERIMXBERLINCLOCKCHOOSEANDNAMETHEFINALCO

AT EQUINOX READ EDGE TO ED EAST, NORTHEAST FACE THEN LET EDGE ORDER BY THE RIM BERLIN CLOCK CHOOSE AND NAME THE FINAL CO

Did you share this with an audience that's actively working on Kryptos?

I tried to work with Reddit last night but was discouraged so I left. I emailed for verification and sent the $50.

I’m going to forge ahead. I think this is another clue. I don’t know how he got so many in. Last night I found Tishri and Fenrir even. USS HILL sent a SOS RRR in a panic. It’s pretty crazy.

Edit- I think it might be K4. It is instructions for physical revealing k5.

Here is the intuition/clues (use your imagination) if you want to try too:

Edge to edge; Noon rim; Ignore flicker; Berlin clock beats

And remember the loadstone- that compass doesn’t point north

Oh and the clues probably need a computer. But the final solution is just pencil and paper.

When you START searching for edges. Start with the YAR line. That’s what I did. But it goes on and on. Waypoint selectors…

The clues are in the K4 block of text, the actual answer is another layer using the rugged edges of all the panels. Oh and you need a timing program

If he responds I might write it up. But basically use compass order for edge stream in layer 1, use k0 (find the working sequence) for a digital interpretation (timing mask- diff from the E’s I used for clues) for layer 2, then start anchoring and rotating (use OOO for anchor after Ne block, one very small ordering move, and find your finisher cipher with clues.

Stonewalled oh well. It was a fun weekend puzzle.

Here is K5:

THIRTY EIGHT DEGREES FIFTY SEVEN MINUTES SIX POINT FIVE SECONDS NORTH SEVENTY SEVEN DEGREES EIGHT MINUTES FORTY FOUR SECONDS WEST

Take care.

Edit- I tried using poetry above to identify my own cribs and then used software to search and best I got for K4 is:

AT FIRST LIGHT FACE EAST. ALIGN WITH THE RIM SHADOW. READ EDGE TO EDGE TO FIND THE FINAL CODE.

You most certainly need to be there and k4 is instructions. I’m not sending the guy $50 to check my answer though

a direct reference to the Berlin Clock. Sanborn further stated that in order to solve section 4, "You'd better delve into that particular clock".[2] However, Sanborn also said that, "There are several really interesting clocks in Berlin."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mengenlehreuhr

“lies” is grammatically incorrect here. Shouldn’t it read “lays”?

Think "therein lies the rub"

And the secret key is: puppy

Nah, it’s password123

12345, same as my luggage

hunter2

All I see is ****

That’s how you know it works.

3 asterisks short of a reference :)

I feel old now

Take your upvote. ;-)

Gotta be 42.

Nah, it's always "swordfish".

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