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Comment by nimbius | Hacker News Reader

the guy who tried to use fruit juice to cure cancer and routinely refused to register his automobile?

the guy who never acknowledged his kid until a court forced him to pay child support?

He outright lied to Wozniak over payments and shares.

https://www.businessinsider.com/steve-wozniak-gave-early-app...

He put himself on the organ waiting list in multiple states when it became apparent that his quack medicine wasn't working to cure his actually perfectly treatable (compared to most) Pancreatic Cancer. He took a liver from someone out of state and died with it. They changed the law to prevent this happening again.

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The guy lied and didn't register his car and handled his own sickness in a way you don't like? The horror!

Sure, complain about him forcing his way onto lists if we're willing to accept that all humans are truly equal (I'm fine with this concept), or being mean to others, but who CARES about the other stuff?

He died early because of his own stubbornness and irrationality. It's a reflection on his judgement.

People like Jobs get attention because they're obnoxious. If they never existed, the world would be no worse off.

So? Who cares why he died? Is it wrong to die for a reason you disagree with? If the world is no worse off without him, then wasn't his judgement neutral at worst, and good at best?

It's weird how much he gets under the skin of people so desperate to pretend they're at the top of the moral totem pole, or at least definitely above the one guy they've ever seen a tell-all story on.

edit: it's almost like, in the current social meta of "doing no wrong is more important than doing good", there is a need to denigrate any approach that doesn't feel extra cozy and warm and loving. But I dunno - he headed up some of the most iconic products in history. He had a helluva team and made things work. I gotta be honest, I don't really care if he said scary and mean things.

I’d hang out with you.

> under the skin of people so desperate to pretend they're at the top of the moral totem pole

I never understood this kind of thinking, and have always found it particularly heartless & puzzling, until one day I stumbled upon something I myself had no visceral reaction to but other people clearly did. It looked like they were being fake about it, either completely, or just in an exaggerating way.

Turned out no, I was just not in the headspace required. Which makes sense cause I mean, let's be honest: what do you think is more likely? The majority of people secretly and intentionally all just messing with you, or rather them just actually saying what they think, and then you just not being able to relate to it?

Nothing I’m saying implies I don’t think they’re speaking how they truly feel. I absolutely believe they genuinely believe them when they say he’s some kind of monster because he didn’t get chemo (???) and was rude to people and took up handicapped parking spaces.

I’m saying it’s unrealistic to target him specifically for being a dick when something like 50% of CEOs already show psychopathic traits.

> Nothing I’m saying implies I don’t think they’re speaking how they truly feel.

Then how am I supposed to interpret "people so desperate to pretend they're at the top of the moral totem pole"? You literally say people are pretending.

> when they say he’s some kind of monster because he didn’t get chemo (???) and was rude to people and took up handicapped parking spaces

I would 100% say he was "some kind of monster" for power abuse (verbal harassment), as well as for denying and neglecting his child, yes. The scrambling for an organ donor after his drug-addled delusions fell through thing doesn't sound too hot either.

Judgements are subjective. Usually people operate under shared assumptions, so one would just expect that their judgement would be widely shared - but this doesn't make them some universal truth.

This is how and why you end up in a circle when people describe things he's a bad person for, and then you just say "well I don't find those things to be bad". Great, we already know he's not a bad person for you, you said as much. People just disagree and see it different, and list things off for you to try and relate. And so you list off counterpoints to make them try and relate.

> I’m saying it’s unrealistic to target him specifically for being a dick

Yes, well, being extremely "well known", along with his personality, despite never having met 99.999% of the people who "know" about him is pretty unrealistic / unnatural to begin with. This includes me of course.

I’m saying they’re pretending that they’re more moral than him. They aren’t, of course. Hell, for a tell-all book, it was extremely benign. Flouting minor laws, not taking care of his health, and being mean? Ahh!

And I’m not surprised that you think he’s some kinda monster. That’s the insane world we live in today, and why it’s such an obnoxious one. You’ve got nothing to balance any bad act on, besides “everything must be done with perfect kindness”, so even something as minor as being rude comes across as “some kind of monster”. You’ve artificially moved your Overton window to such a falsely soft world, you can no longer reasonably judge regular people.

If it's any consolation, I find today's world incredibly obnoxious as well. Although mostly from the exact opposite perspective, as you may imagine (though not quite the overdramatized way you describe).

Tried my best to be persuasive, but this is all I had in me. Let's see where our opinions take this world.

> It's weird how much he gets under the skin of people so desperate to pretend they're at the top of the moral totem pole, or at least definitely above the one guy they've ever seen a tell-all story on.

I'm not perfect but he was everything I strive not to be (I'm not always successful though). I strive to be kind, fair, generous, caring and inclusive. I'm not always those things but I do try. From what I 've seen about Jobs is that he didn't really share those values.

I understand that other people admire him a lot but I don't really, because I have other criteria.

And really to be honest I would not like 95% of successful corporate CEOs. It's not just Jobs. You have to be a certain type, an ambitious person with shark tactics who puts everything aside to get to the top. Otherwise someone else who is will beat you to it. Those are not qualities I consider good in a person.

However each person makes their own judgment and that's ok. My opinion doesn't really matter, but it is mine.

> Who cares why he died?

He would, if he were still alive. But he’s not. Most likely due to his own irrationality.

> But I dunno - he headed up some of the most iconic products in history.

Do you really believe that life would have been particularly different if he had never existed? I don’t. I suppose if you’re some sort of Apple fanboy, you might feel that way, but from any broader perspective, I don’t see it.

> [...] but who CARES about the other stuff?

I care about someone fucking over his business partner.

That's pretty dumb. There are literally thousands upon thousands of companies you purchase from every single day where this happens or has happened. Why do you only care about Jobs?

Answer: because he was the only one brave enough to be this transparent. Literally all you're doing is encouraging everyone to hide this behavior as much as possible, and never EVER own up to it.

Alternate option: I also don't approve of those people either?

It's possible to care about the practice of deception and also talk about one case.

Personally, I don't give much credit for "bravery" when it's expressed in terms of "being transparent" about being an asshole.

Do you give credit when people are brave enough to admit they have… positive traits? Why would someone even bother with saying that stuff?

“Everyone, I’m bravely showing you my spotless record” is really not an impressive showing. Being willing to completely upend your own reputation is.

I don't consider that bravery at all. So no.

I give more bravery points (which are worthless of course) to a whistle blower or someone running into a burning building to rescue the world's most tragic orphan.

Dang, that’s one unbelievably black and white world you live in. The nuance you miss must be book-worthy

I wouldn't know.

in what way does critiquing steve jobs convince the people being screwed over to not share?

i want courts to make it right, not for the swindlers to be confident talking about how they swindle people without consequence.

"owning up to it" is making it right, not chit chatting

I'd day this ship has sailed when he became a celebrity.

Comment on him positively, you're now contributing to elevating his identity into something beyond human (etc.).

Comment on him negatively, and now you're just using him as a scapegoat (etc.).

It would seem like the real devil is in the asymmetry of significance, not in the people in question, or even the traits.

> The guy lied and didn't register his car

this was done so he could park in disabled spaces

which is pretty scummy

I always read it more as a “hacker” thing - he found a loophole and was exploiting it to show it existed, a “look what I can make this do”.

I’m sure Jobs could have had all the legal handicap plates he’d have wanted, if the point was just parking in the handicap spot. But it wasn’t.

>this was done so he could park in disabled spaces

That makes no sense to me. I can't think of a place Jobs would ever drive his car where it would matter if he could park at a disabled spot. He had his own spot at both Apple and his home, where else did he ever park often enough for that to matter?

Personally I believe the explanation that he did it to avoid the ugly license plate. It mirrors how he refused any stickers on the Mac, when all other PC makers had to put the "intel inside" on theirs.

How did you find info that the organ donor law changed from a successfully donated liver across state boundaries? (I've not seen that before)

I found an article that this successful use of a donor organ, rather than waste it, was celebrated, and motivated a pro donor law in California.

https://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-does-it-after-alm...

>the guy who tried to use fruit juice to cure cancer

>to cure his actually perfectly treatable (compared to most) Pancreatic Cancer

Pancreatic cancer has a 13% survival rate

>refused to register his automobile?

Who cares.

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