Comment by kstrauser | Hacker News Reader

Comment by kstrauser | Hacker News Reader

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That's right. To be explicit: I am absolutely, 100% for smart people coming to the US and participating as full, equal peers in our job market. Come on in, friend! I welcome you!

However, I am wholly opposed to the H-1B program as I've seen it used in reality, where those smart peers are used as below-market-rate slave labor who can't really complain about it without facing immediate deportation. I've personally worked with iOS app devs who were making less than I was while working many more hours per week, all because our asshole boss let them know that if they didn't like it, they had 60 days to find another visa sponsor or GTFO of the country and leave their homes and friends and partners behind.

They weren't coming here to invent quantum computers. They were writing phone apps. The sole reason said asshole boss hired them was because he knew he'd own them.

I firmly, adamantly believe there should be an extra 50% employer-borne tax on H-1B roles, making it so that it's possible but expensive to bring in new employees. It wouldn't stop people like those quantum computer scientists. The companies making those things would still hire them in a heartbeat if they couldn't find "local" talent. But it would stop the asshole boss from exploiting my friends to work them like rented mules while artificially suppressing salaries for everyone else.

In my experience the FAANG companies don't really abuse their H-1Bs. At Google or Meta the H-1Bs really are just smart people who participate as full and equal peers. And the FAANGs employ plenty of American citizens, they hire all the good employees they can get. The trouble either comes from small companies or from consulting shops.

The simplest solution is just to take salary into account. If someone is making $180k a year then they aren't "owned".

I think there is probably title deflation going on. Yes, every engineer working at a FAANG is well-paid, and the H1Bs are no exception. But my feeling is they're probably at least a level lower than they would be if they didn't have the captive visa. And this only reinforces that they're all great workers.

In that case there’s absolutely no American that can fit that role

I don't think you can capture the complexity of the world with a single variable. I'm at Amazon. We all make about the same. Some more than me. Some less. However, while I don't have to worry about changing jobs, or _not_ having a job (for awhile), they do. They're working with an entirely different set of pressures and constraints.

For me, I can hop ship, decide I don't like it, boomerang back or take some time off no worse for the wear. That level of autonomy doesn't exist when you've got 60 days to land a job or uproot the life you've been building. Salary is a minor part of the picture. If changing jobs is a gamble that might end in "leave the country," the employer gets a certain kind of "loyalty" that salary cannot buy.

> If changing jobs is a gamble that might end in "leave the country," the employer gets a certain kind of "loyalty" that salary cannot buy.

I agree, but on the flip side: the point of applying for an H1-B visa is to come and work for a company in a specialised field. If you're trying to use it to get yourself permanently into a country, then that's the wrong visa type to apply for. I've worked overseas on a visa, and it was stressful for this reason, but I was under no illusions about that when I applied for it.

> that's the wrong visa type to apply for

What other mechanisms are there to move to a country that has a quality of life you seek, and work for a company that you feel excited about? Because that's most of the motivation from the people (like me) that lived in an under-developed country, are qualified, and wanted to work on the top of the industry.

You work a bit out of college, some day you get an invite to an interview from a FAANG, you take the interview, and next thing you know you're moving to another country, working for a great salary, and in a huge company. You do life. You meet people, maybe a partner, maybe get married, maybe have a kid (after all, life doesn't stop). All this while on a temporary status with no easy way to progress out of it other than via time.

I have felt this pressure of not wanting to switch jobs and/or having to be extra careful in order to not put myself at risk of losing it. Specially with the current state of the industry. It has put me (and still does) at a disadvantage with my local peers. I am not saying this is necessarily good or bad, but it is a reality. The 'visa choice' is fictional, and not the most relevant part of the process.

Going there under that visa with those constraints is a choice. No one owes anyone else a quality of life they seek.

A country doesn’t owe you the right to relocate there, just because they offer the top opportunities in your field or your desired standard of living. At its most extreme, if they decide to make you a b**h to their own citizens à la Qatar, and you take the deal anyways, that’s your own fault

In the case of immigrant workers in Qatar, the deal they're offered very often ends up looking very different from their lived experience once it's accepted and they move into the country to perform the work. If the deal was clearly stipulated ahead of time I'd agree with you.

It’s pretty easy to change jobs on an H-1B if you are high skill. I love hearing folks, who aren’t on an H-1B, tell me things like this. Or that I’m paid less when I’m paid more.

I know these abuses happen, no system is perfect. But I feel the bias in the US against H-1Bs from random citizens not from employers. And the government today has quite strong bias against immigrants.

you are the edge case. for you, it is easy to change employers. For a lot of folks, it is not, despite being equally skilled. it is pretty crass to hand-wave away the real risk of being forced to uproot your life because of the risk that your visa may not be renewed.

About 20% of H1B visas go to indian outsourcing firms. You know the culprits here. Are you really going to argue that these firms are not abusing the system and underpaying employees?

They do hire plenty of American citizens, but the lengths they go to hire people on H-1Bs make me think they get something extra out of it. At FB you'd often see big boards of "public job postings" in internal lobbies that I can only assume were to comply with some arbitrary requirement.

Hiring at FAANGs is hard. A lot of the H-1Bs I worked with got internships somehow, which is a lot less hoops, and they were good in the internship, so you want to give them an offer when they graduate. If they need an employment visa, then you have the experts research their experience and craft a job ad that only they can fill, and place it where it will be least seen but complies with the law.

That's abusing the system, but I dunno, better than abusing the employees that I hear about... Or the straight up fraud where immigrants were paying to get hired on h-1b for fake jobs, or the abuse where job shops would submit 3x the applications for the number of positions they actually had, etc.

That’s for people who already have H1Bs, this is the company trying to keep them long term by getting them a green card. The whole EB green card system is a bit of a mess.

Since H1B has a 6 year hard time limit.

Controlling someones immigration status and legal right to stay in the country is a lot of leverage.

But FAANGs lease people from bodyshops which are abusing the system.

>>had 60 days to find another visa sponsor

H1B is not so bad. Many IT people I know came to the US by L1 visa. That is a true modern slavery! Don't like the work? Laid off? Go home, no other options.

If you put a tax on it they, employers, will simply pay even less. There will be enough people to work even for just food and roof. With the hope to get green card in a few years and bring the family. I was working for years with no promotions so that shitty boss could take the credits. I quit right after getting GC.

I understand but this post would of been a lot better if you simply admitted you don’t want H1B slaves who set the work ethics bar so high. I get it. When someone works until 10pm it makes those who work until 2pm looks bad especially if they have similar capabilities. Keep in mind, a lot of the AI talent started off are young people starting from entry regular level engineer roles. If you want the the quantum computer folks, they don’t even need H1B they can do the phd track.

Everyone has their own perspective. Your friend who referred to as “rented mules” probably will question you as a friend because you actually want them to be out of this country lol. Just be real, we don’t want H1B slaves who set the bar so high for work ethics. Just stop fake being nice as if you care about their well being. They chose to stay in the US after college knowing the expectation. You are shutting down the door for those who really could of developed into great tech talents.

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