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Comment by carlosjobim | Hacker News Reader

Haven't coffee shops since the beginning two hundred years ago been places where people might hang out for a long time without spending much? In the 1800s and beginning of the 1900s? It shouldn't be a problem that people spend time there without spending money, as long as there's plenty of empty tables available, as I see it. And most laptop patrons are conscious to spend some money and not overstay their welcome.

The idea pitched in the article would probably only work with Dutch or central Europeans in general, who unfortunately lack a lot in culture after WWII. Europeans love rules and regulations, and will follow them and take any opportunity to abuse things when there's no explicit rule. Such as overstaying your welcome with your laptop in a café. If this idea with a minimum spend would be pitched in a more mature culture, people would just scoff at it and not visit such a café.

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They used to be places for people to meet and socialize, yes, but that means that you generally had multiple people per table, buying multiple drinks, and adding to the lively and social atmosphere. Compare that to laptop users, who are generally taking up a table by themselves and making the place feel like an office. So it is different, not to mention that skyrocketing rents compound the problem.

I've been in cafés in New York that looked like open plan offices because everyone was on a laptop (and there were no free tables), and many cafés in London now have laptop policies so I think the problem is broader than you suggest.

Yep, on a recent vacation to my favorite city, London, we couldn't find a seat for a coffee break because of the laptop users. If they're drinking a beverage and it's packed, we didn't worry so much.

It was before my time, but my idea of these coffee houses was that people would also sit and read a book or newspaper by themselves.

> I've been in cafés in New York that looked like open plan offices because everyone was on a laptop (and there were no free tables), and many cafés in London now have laptop policies so I think the problem is broader than you suggest.

I agree it's bad taste to sit there with your laptop when there's no tables available, and establishments who suffer from this should implement laptop policies. But I've also been many times to cafés which would be completely empty if it wasn't for the people working on their laptops.

Yes customers over-staying, complaining, not spending enough seems to be the problem Cafe owners have. One near me had a threatening sign that "if you're sitting, you need to be sipping" (you're welcome, but not for long). The solution of a printed-flyer to tell specific customers to move on seems like the good idea here, and I would think a cafe owner could print a card which says "we need to pay the bills, you've taken this table for an hour, please come get another drink." or maybe ask two laptop users to share one table. Also noteworthy is the Capital One (ING Direct (USA)) model where laptop users are welcome, but the Capital One Cafes are brand enforcing, not profit making coffee shops. This 2005 Slate article is one of my favorite on the topic: https://slate.com/human-interest/2005/12/my-coffeehouse-nigh...

A more delicate solution would be to keep bothering overstayers with "Would you like another coffee?", "Is there anything else I can bring you?".

A popular restaurant / café near me found the perfect solution. They ban laptops during lunch hours until early afternoon.

Earlier, even. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_coffeehouses_in_the_17...

The first coffeehouses established in Oxford were known as penny universities, as they offered an alternative form of learning to structural academic learning, while still being frequented by the English virtuosi who actively pursued advances in human knowledge. The coffeehouses would charge a penny admission, which would include access to newspapers and conversation.

That's in the 1650s. Then 60 years later in London the coffeehouses were involved in the rise of printed daily newspapers, they distributed them. (Several of these had advertiser in the name, and were more ads than news, because access to adverts in the early days was desirable and worth paying for.)

That's very interesting! A modern equivalent could be the internet cafés, which of course were never social in the same sense, but charged by the hour.

I feel like I'm slighting the Dutch, who to be fair were also a little bit involved in early coffee culture, but they don't seem to get an article on en wiki.

Internet cafes were social once! I remember making an exciting group excursion to one to participate in some kind of debate over IRC. Pffft.

Would love to know which cultures are mature and which aren’t, just so I can keep it in mind when I’m deciding how much I have to push rules and regulations onto users from different cultures.

It's a very delicate issue to put in practice, because as a business you rarely want to price discriminate along cultural lines. But for example, when dealing with customers from some countries, you know that they will demand the best product or service and don't mind paying through the nose for it. While for some other countries they mainly want to pay as little as possible and don't expect much. Americans for example are big spenders and are used to be very well treated by businesses as customers. Europeans live in a mixed economy, where what they spend has little correlation to customer experience. In Europe you can get some great benefits for a low or no price, due to government subsidies or nationalization. You can also be treated like garbage by a company, even though you are a high spending customer.

The easiest way to beat competition in Europe is to just train your staff for a couple of days to be friendly and give nice service. Because nobody else does that.

>people would just scoff at it and not visit such a café.

That would be to the benefit of the shop - scaring away non paying customers who are hogging a scarce resource is a good thing, not a bad thing.

But you're also scaring away good customers who would spend money at your café and not overstay their visit.

Why do you think that?

"A Badge would place a discreet flyer with a QR code: “Planning to stay and work? Great! A minimum spend of €12 every three hours keeps the Wi‑Fi flowing.” Staff could simply point to the flyer—no awkward confrontations, no hard feelings."

If I'm a respectful customer with a laptop and I sit down and some staff comes and does this, I would simply leave. People will go to cafés where they feel welcome.

> If this idea with a minimum spend would be pitched in a more mature culture, people would just scoff at it and not visit such a café.

I don't think this would be the negative you're implying it to be. That empty seat would be of much more benefit to the café.

Agreed.

This article seem to be centered on Dutch culture (Which I have discovered the hard way is one of the most stingy frugal culture you could ever imagine).

At some point we need to realize when generalizations of cultures and peoples becomes problematic and cool it, not add on to it.

The Dutch being frugal is well-documented and well-known [1]. Are you suggesting we should just pretend it is not the case and act as if we all thought exactly the same way? This article is only relevant because it takes place in that exact culture.

[1] https://www.moneyonthemind.org/post/how-the-dutch-handle-mon...

I see the same problem of coffee shops overcrowded with laptop using "squatters" here in the US, at least in dense urban areas.

Stingy or frugal? Very different things.

My (American) brother in law calls me cheap. Which is what frugal sounds like to me. As a native Dutch I call myself cheaper than the Scottish. When I go out shopping, I will spend hours looking and not buying anything.

I don't think stingy fits the bill per se since that would be saving money at the expense of others. Almost like the coffee shop customers who are not buying anything?

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