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Comment by rayiner | Hacker News Reader

> But, when three members of the group came forward to testify, all expressed support for the Tipped Workers Protection Act and opposition to the One Fair Wage Act, which they portrayed as an effort to steal their tips

This article is missing a real issue here by trying to make the story all about the employers. Many workers like the tip system because it creates inequality among the restaurant workers. Good servers can earn a lot more money than what they’d earn if every server were paid the same, fair wage.

My mom used to work at a furniture store as a floor sales associate on commission. She would regularly clear $120,000/year (this was 15 years ago, so like $180,000 today). A generous wage for the job at the time probably would’ve been $50,000 or so. She would’ve fought such a policy tooth and nail.

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Is the definition of a good server in this case one who can serve more tables than others in the same amount of time? In most places tips are mandatory and % does not depend much on anything unless someone messed up.

Commission on sales is very different from restaurant tips.

Tips, at least in the US has never been mandatory but it is an immense social pressure. Besides, my understanding is that tipping % is arbitrary anyway - there have been studies that show good looking people get more tips.

I think tipping culture has changed a lot in the last 5 years or so, driven mainly by the point-of-sale machines that request tips for seemingly adding no value. I think people have reached the point of tipping fatigue.

Definitely. I also think it has blurred the lines even more, and exposes how arbitrary it is. Do I tip if I scan from a QR code and order, where I have almost no interactions with the server? How is it any different than counter service? All that changed is instead of self-service order it is self-service pickup. I probably still have to flag down a server to get utensils or water.

Why did the tip percentage go up from 15% as the norm to like 18-20%? It’s a percentage so if things go up in price so does the tip. At what point is it their job vs quality of service? Why don’t we tip fast food workers, because they probably face more abuse / deal with unruly customers more than dine-in (at least from experience).

Can you tell I think about this a lot? lol

> Why did the tip percentage go up from 15% as the norm to like 18-20%

Why did it go up from 10% to 15% 50+ years ago? And why did it go up from 18-20% to 22-25% in the last few years?

> And why did it go up from 18-20% to 22-25% in the last few years?

Especially when they removed the separate server minimum wage at the same time, meaning that servers both moved up into the regular minimum wage and gained in tipping culture.

I'm old. For me, tipping has always been a cash-only transaction because I felt the money going directly into the server's or other staff's pockets. The owner of the business never touched the cash tips, and the tips were rarely reported (for taxes). But now, when I tip with one of those point-of-sale devices, I have no idea where that "tip money" is going - does it ever reach the server or other staff? Does the owner just pocket the "tip money"?

> Does the owner just pocket the "tip money"?

Not if they know what's good for them.

It is usually against the law to do so, and enforcement is extremely pro-labor, so the only chance you'd have to get away with it is if it got swept under the rug and nobody ever complained. But people who work in tipped positions are some of the most ruthless people you'll ever meet (you kind of have to be when tips are your bread and butter), so that's never going to happen in anything but made up fantasy.

The final cost of the bill matters more than anything. A server at a higher-end restaurant where the bills regularly exceed hundreds of dollars will earn more in tips serving fewer tables than a server that works at a cheaper casual-chain restaurant (IHOP, Applebees, etc).

More so than tables per unit time, it's dollars per unit time. When I was a server, the usual metric of how well you performed on a given shift was the total of your bills ("how much you sold"). The best servers were good at encouraging parties to spend on the things they were on the fence about: the appetizer, the second drink, the dessert. Even with the volatility of individual tipping decisions, getting your tables to order more increases the EV of your total tips.

I haven't thought of that, makes sense. That likely applies more to higher-end non-chain places and tourist spots with lots of first time visitors. Regular customers will often know what they want.

I don't think you read the article. It explains that those three members who came forward were not actually servers, but restaurant management & owners. Additionally, the article is not missing this issue you call out. The author goes so far as to discuss Casino dealers in Vegas who would stand to gain the most out of this sales tax proposal (sales commissions in your anecdote do not count as tips). But primarily, the author is concerned about the 1/3 of tipped workers who do not pay federal income tax and are at risk of falling below the poverty line due to reductions in their minimum wage.

Sales' commissions and servers' tips is an apples-to-oranges comparison.

I think tips in many places are slowly converging into something like a 20% commission paid by the consumer, thanks to restaurants including a suggested tip on the screen or receipt, and bars automatically charging a 20% tip if you don't explicitly close your tab.

I hadn't thought of this before, but keeping tips as formally selected and paid for by the consumer may help the restaurant with liability issues where alcohol is involved. Paying servers and bartenders a direct sales commission might become an issue in court if a customer is overserved.

I've just stopped eating out because of this. Wonder how many people have. I don't want to be made to feel awkward at what is supposed to be an enjoyable experience for me. I especially don't want to be made to feel that way to manipulate money from me.

I used to hate those suggested tip things too. Now I got over my caring and just tip what I think appropriate. I mean when the restaurant sets the default to 25% or 30% that tells me they have no shame so neither should I.

Servers also know that if tips are outlawed, they will never make that much money again.

It's possible for high end bartenders or servers to make over $500 a night in tips. The whiplash of moving into true salary or hourly work is an open secret in the high end service industry. This is why you see some old waiters and bartenders hanging around, when some people consider the service industry "entry level."

This is also why I don't like to listen to them complain about their jobs lol. The difficulty of work to income ratio is unique to this industry.

Yeah, if you're lucky you can make a huge amount of money in tips - if you're the right server on the right night at the right place and get the right customers.

You can also, if you're not lucky, barely make anything in tips on minimal hours per week and then have your employer steal half your tips anyway, and then you're basically clearing $4.50/hr for 12 hours a week and probably ending up on food stamps until republicans eliminate those entirely.

Thing is, I've known freelancers who make great money, but even they can have a constant underlying stress about "if the work dries up I'm homeless". Imagine the same thing but instead of the work drying up your manager only schedules you for four hours a day between the lunch rush and dinner and the tips are minimal despite being there for the same hours.

Some people always like the status quo: no bloc is 100% consistent. With numbers like what you provide, though, this would be a minority of affected people... though, the ones with the most money to lobby.

I wonder if paying servers a commission on the food sales would improve things somewhat. At least it force employers to include that into the price of the items

>creates inequality

Did you mean that it rewards them for their efforts?

For food service, specifically waiting tables - how much of the tip is because of effort and better service - and how much is due to the attractiveness and general demographic characteristics of the server?

Good question. I would say mostly the former. I imagine you might say the latter.

I personally top out at 20% no matter what. If the service is lousy I’ll go lower. When servers/bartenders are comping me then I know they get it and will up my percentage.

I guess carrying around a large rack takes more effort than a small one.

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