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Comment by Aloisius | Hacker News Reader

I live in California and this isn't true here. All restaurant workers receive at least minimum wage before tips. In my city, that's $19/hour with health insurance.

Of course, you're still expected to leave a tip and suggested minimum is now 20%, plus even McDonalds is charging $15 for a 4 oz burger, so I rarely go out to eat at places that expect a tip anymore.

I'm not sure why they specifically should be tax exempt though. Cash tips often were, practically speaking, so a lot of tax evasion was happening, but it still seems odd to single them out.

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Yeah, there is a lot of shadiness going on these days. I don't think tips should be requested in any sort of transaction where the employee gets paid more than minimum wage. Restaurants always had this weird system where you could avoid paying your employees if they were tipped, so it was drilled into everyone's head "you're stealing from poor innocent workers if you don't tip 20%". But this is not the case for most workers, and so tips should be truly for exceptional service in cases where the job position is on a normal pay scale.

This isn't to say that I don't tip when not required to or that I only tip people I think are being underpaid, but ... things have gotten a little out of control. If I feel like tipping, I'll tip. I do not need a prompt suggesting anything when it's not coming out of the employee's takehome pay.

I hate to say it but I think some government regulation is required here.

Peak tip cynicism is when you're at an upscale restaurant where the wait staff are obviously being paid more than minimum wage, the bill automatically includes a gratuity (often 18% or more), and then on top of that, there's a line to include another tip.

It's not a "tip" if it's included. Biggest scam ever.

Any fee or surcharge beyond the listed menu prices and associated taxes are a tip as far as I'm concerned.

If the restaurant is going to be shady and unilaterally introduce confusion to an already confusing norm, then I consider that norm voided and fair game for any interpretation.

Upscale restaurants that tip is often being split 5 or 6 ways... not just the primary server, but also the bartender, sommelier, food runners, etc.

Another peak of cynicism is that the owners try to argue that the "service charge" is legally not a tip so it doesn't need to be distributed to workers.

Seven states do not have a separate, lower minimum wage for tipped employees. Instead, they require employers to pay tipped employees the full state minimum wage, regardless of tips received. These states are Alaska, California, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington.

Sixteen states use the federal tipped minimum wage of $2.13: Alabama, Georgia, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nebraska, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, and Wyoming.

https://www.epi.org/minimum-wage-tracker/

  > Seven states do not have a separate, lower minimum wage for tipped employees

All workers, in every state, must be paid at least minimum wage.

There's a subtle but important difference in wording. There is no "lower minimum wage" for any employee anywhere. The rule is that employers may credit tips towards pay, up to a certain amount. And they can never credit 100% of pay.

So tipped employees should always earn: minimum_wage + stochastic_number

"lower minimum wage for tipped employees" is incorrect and is just the interpretation of "minimum employer must pay after applying tip credits". Subtle, but very different things! If you aren't earning at least minimum wage (tips inclusive), then your experiencing wage theft.

The DOL page[0] specifically says "Maximum Tip Credit Against Minimum Wage" and that's how the column "Minimum Cash Wage" is calculated, but under no circumstances[1] can the employer pay less than "Minimum Cash Wage". Anything less is illegal. ALSO under no circumstances[1] may an employee earn less than minimum wage.

[0] https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped

[1] We're ignoring allowed deductions like lodging and meal

This is a lot of words for a distinction without a difference.

What's the minimum quantity of money a server can be paid after a 1 hour shift?

If it's the same in both cases, that's his point.

I understand their point. What's the minimum a business has to pay for a one hour shift?

That's the point that all the parents above them are concerned with. So a semantic argument is needlessly pedantic.

> What's the minimum a business has to pay for a one hour shift?

Minimum wage. You can credit that with tips in some places, but you also have to credit the customer in those cases (not legally, but they aren't coming if you don't), so the net is the same.

Right, but if a tipped employee in a lower-tipped-minimum state doesn't make the full minimum wage when their tips are included, it's a lot easier in a place like that for a shady employer to fail to top up their wage. Yes, in theory there are ways for employees to get this enforced, but in practice they are very reasonably and understandably wary about making use of those legal avenues.

Not to mention that in a state where there is no lower tipped-wage minimum, all tips go to the employees directly. In a state where the tipped minimum is lower, tips effectively go to the employer for the amount between the tipped minimum and regular minimum, as that's a cost the employer would otherwise have to pay.

I knew someone who worked a graveyard shift at a Waffle House in NC. After their first month, when tips were distributed, they did not make the federal minimum wage, so they had to request additional pay to get to minimum wage (IIRC it was not automatic).

Waffle house then opened an "inquiry" since if they weren't making minimum wage through tips, it must have been because their service was poor (of course it's actually because it was a weekday graveyard shift).

They got their additional $30 or whatever and were then let go.

So while I agree it is illegal to pay less than federal minimum wage, even with tips, but in practice the system is built such that for poor workers in poor areas, they will frequently make less than minimum wage.

Although probably much less nowadays since the $7.25 is still the federal minimum wage and it's pretty hard to find people desperate enough to work for that little money since recent inflation.

  > I live in California and this isn't true here

I made a longer comment in the main thread[0] because I think there's a tendency for conversations about tipping to degrade as people are making different assumptions based on the different laws of where they're from or grew up.

To be clear:

  - Any worker that is not making *at least the state's minimum wage* (including tips) is suffering from wage theft. (with the exception of Georgia (WTF)) 
  
  - Any worker not receiving a positive valued check are suffering from wage theft
    - Tips only count as a credit and no state lets tips act as a 100% credit to the wage[1]. Credits may be amortized across "workweek" pay.

We always need to make sure we distinguish a conversation about wage theft and a conversation about tipping. I think they are unknowingly being used interchangeably (or as an assumption in a conversation)

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44751537 (sources linked here)

[1] Federal only lets max credit of 70% of min wage. Some states go up to ~75% of min wage, but their minimum wage is higher than federal.

Servers, often, seem to think it's our (the customer's) obligation to compensate for the sins of their employer.

"Many restaurant owners illegally don't actually follow this law". "Report them to the DOL". "I don't want to do that. You should tip me to make sure I have a livable wage instead."

Perhaps this would happen less often if people didn't just spread hopelessness

Or maybe that's a logical reaction to the situation these people live in.

Sure, it is logical. But that doesn't mean it is a good reaction. Certainly it doesn't help make the problem go away.

Don't confuse "logical" with "correct" or even make the false notion that there is a "correct" reaction. The "right" reaction depends on your goals, short term and long term.

But defeatist attitude results in a tragedy of the commons situation. It's social debt. Think of it like a mess. Messes are easiest to clean up right after they occur. But as time goes on, it becomes harder to clean. If everyone is doing their share of their work messes are very manageable. But if people don't do their share, then it must be picked up by everyone else, right? I think most of us have been in a situation where we've had to clean up "everybody's" mess (if you haven't, you might be that asshole leaving that mess). The defeatist attitude is like that person grumbling "it's too big of a mess, we'll never clean it up." Well... not with that attitude. If the mess needs to be cleaned up, it needs to be cleaned up. Either you help or you make it worse for everyone else.

> even McDonalds is charging $15 for a 4 oz burger

Jeez, where is this? According to the famous McCheapest map the most expensive Big Mac in America is about 8 bucks. Have prices really shot up that much recently?

https://pantryandlarder.com/mccheapest

https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/mcdonalds-san-francisco-61?s...

What got lost in an edit was that's for the combo with a bag ($0.25 extra).

>Of course, you're still expected to leave a tip and suggested minimum is now 20%, plus even McDonalds is charging $15 for a 4 oz burger, so I rarely go out to eat at places that expect a tip anymore.

Don't tip, especially 20%, for over the counter service. That is ridiculous.

>I'm not sure why they specifically should be tax exempt though. Cash tips often were, practically speaking, so a lot of tax evasion was happening, but it still seems odd to single them out.

It's just a gimmick to get votes. The theory is that poor people tend to be the ones that work these jobs, they need a break, and it's not a policy that would cost very much anyway. There is a cap on the tips and most cash tips were going unreported anyway.

I'm happy that CA doesn't set a lower min wage for tipped workers, but the problem is that in many/most places in CA, $19/hr is still not a living wage, so the tips are more or less required to keep those workers housed and eating.

A living wage in most population centers in CA is nearly $30/hr.

People argued the living wage was $15/hour in California a few years ago. Then it was $20/hour. Now you're saying $30/hour.

I have to ask what is causing what's considered a living wage to increase so rapidly, because it appears to be increasing far faster than the national inflation rate.

It sounds like a wage-price spiral, though I'm not aware of anyone claiming we're in one.

You are seeing an environment that is highly conducive to a wage spiral, but so far wages haven't shown reactive enough to find that a spiral has set in. Comments like the above indicate that it wouldn't take much of a spark to see it ignite, though.

Granted, like a lot of things in economics, you can only tell in hindsight long after it has played out and the data is collected and analyzed, so it is also possible that the spiral is already underway and we just don't know it yet.

It's actually even worse than that. The $19/hr and health insurance comes from increasing menu prices, so with flat percentage tips, you're paying more purely for the privilege of paying more.

California doesn't have a special minimum wage for tipped professions? When I was waiting tables a long time ago I think my pay was $1.95 an hour. It was usually just enough to cover tax on tips (the ones we admitted).

Nope. Tipped workers are paid full minimum wage in California.

California has not had a tipped minimum wage since at least the early 2000s, and I can’t seem to find any information on what is in the 1900s.

Looks like it changed in 1988 due to a state supreme court ruling about a 1975 law. The law said the tips were the "sole property" of the employee and couldn't be counted by the employer as wages.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-11-01-mn-628-st...

They eliminated the special minimum wage for tipped professions in Seattle too, which is currently $20.76 per hour.

  > California doesn't have a special minimum wage for tipped professions?

NO STATE has a "special minimum wage for tipped professionals". MOST STATES allow tips to be *credited* towards wage, but NO STATE allows an employee to be paid less than minimum wage. There's a "special minimum wage THAT EMPLOYERS MUST CONTRIBUTE TOWARDS a tipped professional'S WAGE", but that's a very different thing than "the minimal amount of pay an employee may receive."

The difference is where the money comes from: directly from employer vs directly from customer. But in all cases *the sum of these sources* must equal the minimum wage.

If the employee is not taking home at least minimum wage, then the employer is guilty of wage theft.

If the employer does not make at least $x towards an employee's wage, the employer is guilty of wage theft.

So instead, read the CA's (and AK, MN, MT, NV, OR, WA) rule as "tips may not be credited towards an employee's salary".

[0] https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped

> If the employer does not make at least $x towards an employee's wage, the employer is guilty of wage theft.

See what your server's reaction is if you tell them to report this wage theft.

They won't. They'll just suggest you tip them to compensate.

They should. It's easy to report. Doesn't matter if nothing happens right away, because the more reports that accumulate the higher priority it becomes.

So instead of trying to tell me how fruitless this is and just give up to endless arguments, maybe report wage theft if you know about it. You can do it anonymously. You can do it for people that tell you. It's not a hopeless situation. Hell, lawyers take payment after the case is won, and you know if your wage is being stolen then others are too

It's easy to report, but retaliation is a thing, and is hard -- and expensive -- to prove. Someone subject to wage theft is not the kind of person who can afford that trouble.

And it's not like restaurant owners don't talk among themselves. Getting blackballed isn't great.

Bottom line is that you seem to think that there's zero reason why people are shy about reporting wage theft. And yet so many people don't want to do it. Maybe try a little humility on and accept that maybe there are reasons you don't know about or don't understand. It's very easy to tell people what they should be doing when you don't have to walk in their shoes.

> it's not like restaurant owners don't talk among themselves

I’m sympathetic to the arguments, but this sounds like scaremongering.

If you have evidence of it, please post.

There are so many restaurants everywhere, just leave the worst place off your resume. I can’t see owners coordinating if there’s no online platform for it.

  >  but retaliation is a thing, and is hard -- and expensive -- to prove.

My understanding is that it is fairly easy to prove. If you suddenly have a change in working conditions it is considered retaliation. See the example here[0]. Doesn't matter if you're in an at will employment state. If you get terminated really close to a reporting, well, you'll probably take home more money than you would have by working. It's up to the employer to prove the termination was rightful and they can't just say "because".

It also is not expensive. At least not more than the theft. Lawyers working on wage theft generally take payment as part of the recovery. You pay out of the winnings, not up front.

Honestly, a big part of the problem is that many people have defeatist attitudes. A lot of people don't even bother to make a report after they leave. It is hard to retaliate when you've left.

[0] https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/retaliation

You keep posting this over and over as if states with a lower tipped minimum are equivalent to states with the same minimum, regardless of tips.

You're not wrong that, in states with a lower tipped minimum, the tips act as a credit. But you're ignoring what the power imbalance in those situations can do to an employee, and you're ignoring the fact that in states like that, tips paid by customers are effectively subsidizing the employer out of paying minimum wage.

And I don't think that it would be surprising that wage theft is more common in places where the tipped minimum is set lower than the general minimum.

As a customer, I would much rather know that the employer is paying the full fair minimum wage regardless, and any tip I leave will always be on top of that. I don't want to be paying a part of the employee's wage that the employer would otherwise be paying.

I hear you, but your solution sounds defeatist. Like there's nothing that can be done.

  > tips paid by customers are effectively subsidizing the employer out of paying minimum wage.

Not effectively, literally. That is what a credit is.

But I'm making sure that the conversation is clear that anyone not making minimum wage is suffering from wage theft. We have to identify the right problem if we want to fix it.

  > As a customer, I would much rather know that the employer is paying the full fair minimum wage regardless

I also like this idea. I don't think there should be a wage credit. It is helpful to reducing wage theft. While I would, personally, get rid of credits I don't think I'd get rid of tipping all together. Certainly at least not until there's a better minimum wage rate.

  >  I don't want to be paying a part of the employee's wage that the employer would otherwise be paying.

You're always doing this. Either your money goes directly to the employee or is going to the employee through the intermediary of the employer. In the case you are not directly paying the employee you're paying the employer.

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