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Comment by brcmthrowaway | Hacker News Reader

Any way to compose compelling electronic music without having to spend time learning a commercial app like Ableton?

So many to choose from (in alphabetical order)...

- Bytebeat: https://dollchan.net/bytebeat/ (https://greggman.com/downloads/examples/html5bytebeat/html5b... !Warning loud!)

- Cardinal: https://cardinal.kx.studio/live

- Glicol: https://glicol.org

- Kabelsalat: https://kabel.salat.dev

- NoiseCraft: https://noisecraft.app

- Strudel: https://strudel.cc (https://github.com/terryds/awesome-strudel)

- Tidal Cycles: https://tidalcycles.org

You're really going to dump a total newbie into simulated rack synths, computer music languages, and whatnot? In order to "save time" over learning a DAW?

I'm sympathetic to some of what you're plugging. Really. I love VCVRack. But have mercy!

I am one of those newbies and I spent way too much of my morning going through all of these. :D

I love Ableton though. You can google any random thing about it and get an answer somewhere because it's so widely used. Dunno what OP has against it. It's not hard to come by Ableton Live Lite license for free. I think just buying their iphone app gives you access to Lite license.

That stuff is kind of cool, but it's definitely not a shortcut to making an ordinary song!

I haven't used Ableton for 5 years or so. I got addicted to GB and then Logic (an easy step from GB). But I should try it again. I mean Ableton is what Grimes uses. She's my (musical) like role model. (Only musical tho.)

If you want to make "normal" electronic music (and never tried before), use GarageBand on an iPad. It's easier to learn than Ableton et al. because GarageBand has reasonable settings built in. I.e. it will make sounds right away, without endless screwing around. (You might even try GarageBand on a phone, if the screen is large enough.)

If you want to make "experimental" music then ... you'll have to experiment. Most of the recommendations in these comments are aimed at experimental music.

Most things labeled "computer music" belong to a very specific retro experimental music aesthetic, literally dating back to the era when you could barely make music on a computer at all. Much of this music was heavily influenced by academic workers. That may be exactly what you're looking for! On the other hand if you're not quite sure what I'm talking about, then be aware that "computer music" is not the only, or even the sanest, way to make music on your computer.

Agreed! If you have an Apple device GarageBand is the best way to get started.

Once you start getting into many tracks and advanced routing it seems like the choice (for me at least) is Logic Pro or Ableton Live. And I find Ableton much more fun to use when I want to jam, whereas Logic feels more like programming which is also great. FL Studio is also lots of fun. Try various options and see what fits best with what you are trying to do.

I use Logic but I should try Ableton again. It's been years.

It's like asking whether you can do serious photography without Photoshop/Lightroom or create games without Unreal/Unity. The answer is you can, but do you really want to? Your most important goal is to use a tool to get the job done. The tool is a method to get there, not something you want to fight with.

It's more like when kids start taking music lessons. Most parents aren't going to spend more than $100-200 on an instrument, in case the kid decides they want to quit. But the entrypoint for virtually any instrument that you could call "playable" is usually north of $500 (which also competes against a massive supply of used instruments from people that spent $500+ and then quit).

There's nothing wrong with playing around with Reaper, Garageband, BandLab, or any of the more entry level "instruments" in this analogy. Preferable even, if you don't want to blow hundreds of bucks on a program.

You can get perfectly playable electric guitars in the $100 to $200 price range. It might need some setup first but you can learn to do that yourself from online videos. Modern mass production means popular instruments can be excellent value for money.

Sure, but keep in mind that's not how people who have never picked up an instrument think. It takes a level of expertise to get there. The point is that cheap is fine for beginners, while the more expensive stuff is worth it for serious practitioners.

I'm sure it seems that way to you, but for people who never touched an electric guitar before that's going to be torture. You need an instrument that you really want to pick up and play, that stays in tune, etc. It doesn't need to be $1500, but at $150 they better have an uncle who's a guitar tech.

I have an old Gibson Marauder that rapidly gets out of tune. So far no shop has been able to do anything about that. It would probably go for $400 or more retail, to a beginner who doesn't notice (or thinks the problem is his/her fault). But it's no fun to play. Chords sound bad. And that kind of thing is not unusual.

>You need an instrument that you really want to pick up and play, that stays in tune, etc. It doesn't need to be $1500, but at $150 they better have an uncle who's a guitar tech.

If you really want to play you will play regardless of the instrument you have. Like many, I started with cheap instruments, so I figured out how to fix them or at least make them better. I was 12 and wanted to play guitar, my parents were not willing to spend money on it and just found some handme downs from the relatives, and I made it work because I wanted to play guitar. Ended up teaching myself lutherie, made some money, made some instruments. These days it is easier than ever to maintain your own instrument with the internet to answer all your questions, I had to learn to repair and maintain my guitar by working backwards from books on construction since that is all my library had.

>So far no shop has been able to do anything about that.

It is an issue with the bridge, the nut, and or the tuners, on a guitar of that age it is a fair chance it is a combination of all three. I am guessing you are bringing the instrument to normal guitar shops that primarily do sales and lack anyone even remotely competent when it comes to repair.

Thanks. I think that's all valuable context for a beginner thinking about using a very low-priced guitar.

I have been playing for 50 years at this point. I'm currently playing something similar to this (0) bought at GC for $329 and while the knobs and jack could stand to be replaced (especially if you are performing) it plays and sounds great. You do not need to spend more than $500 to get a solid electric guitar these days. You can definitely spend a lot more for a top tier brand like Fender, Gibson, PRS, Suhr, etc... but there is a lot of good value between $250 - $500.

[0]https://www.guitarcenter.com/Gretsch-Guitars/G5210-P90-Elect...

That price range will suit most players and many of these contemporary lower end guitars even have decent pickups with a sort of jack of all trades compromise, massive improvement over the low end pickups of the past. The next notch up in quality mostly is improved hardware and pickups tailored more to a style/sound, instruments for the performer who plays a lot and these instruments are generally a good value for those sorts. Above that it is questionable but there are some amazing instruments that justify their price, spending $2k on a guitar is not that expensive in the grand scheme if it is the right guitar for you and is the one which will be with you for life. We have a great range of instruments to pick from these days.

Ok but I think we're talking $400 not $150. And there are lemons in every price range, which a beginner can't really detect. Correct me if I'm wrong.

$150 guitars (from the reputable brands) tend to use about the same quality of hardware as the $400 guitars, they just use plywood and synthetic fingerboards and uncool woods which are generally uncool for stupid reasons. Add in a cheap paint job, a thousand fewer turns of copper on the pickup coils maybe made up for with a cheaper stronger magnet and you are getting into the $150 range. Setup and playing wise they tend to be about the same as the $400 guitars.

There are lemons in every price range which no one can detect, it is the nature of wood.

I appreciate this perspective. To oversimplify, you're challenging total beginners to self-teach guitar repair at a level beyond what normal guitar shops offer. Your attitude toward playing seems like my attitude toward my profession, which I'm actually good at.

But here's my perspective on guitar. I'm closer to a perpetual beginner than to a good player. I partly blame the Marauder, because the chords just never sound sweet. It's a bummer, not a joy, to play it.

I have access to YouTube and I've tried to fix my Marauder. Two shops have tried, although one guy admitted he was working from YouTube. (I'm certain it's fixable. It's two pieces of wood with a bridge and a nut on them. The neck is straight enough to be very playable.) But I have a job and a family and I'm not luthier material. I finally gave up and bought an old Fender for too much money. $800 or something. I play it regularly. It stays in tune. I feel good when I play it.

I confess I have some brand-name vulnerability to Fender. "Classic" whatever whatever. Some child inside me doesn't want an Ibanez, he wants a Tele. I'm the kind of guy who would buy that yellowy "antique white" color if it didn't always seem to cost a bit extra. So yes probably I could get a better guitar for the same money if I knew the less famous brands.

Plus anyway the metalheads (or somebody) have run up the prices on Ibanez guitars.

Developing repair skills beyond those offered by most guitar shops is not a high bar considering most shops don't offer repair and just have a "tech" whose training stops at intonation and truss rod adjustment, the stuff required for basic setup. Personally, I think every guitarist should learn setup even if they plan on paying someone to do it, it is not difficult or time consuming to learn and if you can tune a guitar you can do a setup. I did not challenge anyone and to suggest I did is a misrepresentation, not an oversimplification.

>Your attitude toward playing seems like my attitude toward my profession, which I'm actually good at.

It is the attitude required to get good .

You're arguing with yourself. Anybody can hit "parent" a few times and see exactly what you wrote up-thread.

> If you really want to play you will play regardless of the instrument you have.

That's just you, not for any other musician who aspire to improve their technique and isn't so poor that a better instrument is completely out of reach.

I was playing piano on a budget Yamaha digital piano, and as soon as I could afford it, I upgraded it. I upgraded to an upright again. I knew my progress will be hampered by the lack of dynamics and proper key actions. The sound just isn't expressive.

Setup is a huge factor. I got a $300 parts "Telecaster" on Craigslist and took it to Bill's Music (https://www.billsmusic.com/) for their premium setup and it definitely took it to the next level in terms of the electronics, frets (especially worn and / or protruding), intonation, etc... So if you have a guitar you want to love that isn't quite there, consider getting a pro setup by a shop you trust.

Reaper is not an "entry level instrument". It is a low cost, but full featured DAW. Garageband and BandLab are beginner DAWs, though for many they might work just fine for a long time or even for ever, depending on someone's goals and aspirations.

Didn't mean to say imply it wasn't. I'd say Logic is also priced like an entry level tool, yet fully featured.

I have been seeing a few DJ with livestreams composing with Strudel. It's a live web repl programming based approach. I don't think it necessarily scales to professional use, but it's a reasonable intro to the core concepts.

I've gone through the tutorial and it was honestly the most fun I've had on the web in a while.

https://strudel.cc/workshop/getting-started/

Hey thanks I hadn't heard of this.

You're welcome. I should expand on my "professional use" comment as i think it may be overly critical. Strudel is being used professionally by some artists. What I meant by the comment is the expertise you get in Strudel as a tool is not directly transferrable to the tools that most of the other electronic music artists use professionally. All of the fundamental concepts and skills map over but how things are directly done is very different in Strudel (and its cousins - the history of Strudel is fascinating too) from other electronic music tools used by professional artists.

Learning the app is not the difficult part. It is honing your style within the toolset you're comfortable with. Every DAW has its pain points and learning curve. Spend a few hours a week with each and see which one works for you, is my advice. Same as any other tool, you can't create effectively until you've become comfortable with it.

Literally hundreds or even thousands of ways, physical instrument such as sequencer/sampler, other DAWs. It’s not about learning a commercial app it’s about understanding principles of music production irrelevant of your platform. Just pick one and go: your ears won’t know any difference

Honorable mention: FruityLoops. I remember it from high school, 2006, we've had a hand-me-down 486 with maybe 32mb RAM? The boys made some great loops, I brought a guitar, we ran a freakin live hip hop show, standing ovations, FL delivered.

If you bought FL back then, you should still have a license for the latest FL Studio! They offer lifetime updates, which is a pretty good offer if you like the software. (I use Bitwig which doesn't, but I find it worth the tradeoff.)

Learning a bit of ableton is the least hard part of making compelling electronic music. Bitwig is fine as well. There is such a deluge of people eager to teach you via youtube or udemy etc.

You'll have to spend time learning whatever tool you are going to employ. If commercial is the issue... Have a look at SuperCollider. It has a learning curve, new programming language and all that. But the flexibility and actual software architecture is pretty unmatched in its own nieche IMO.

I haven't heard anything nice from SuperCollider

Me either. Links or no downvotes, bruhs.

Ableton Live is very intuitive and there is a lite version that is bundled with some interfaces (https://www.ableton.com/en/products/live-lite/features/?pk_v...). It has been years so I don't remember which interface / version I started with but I quickly fell in love and upgraded to the full version. The time I have spent learning it has been fun and worthwhile, so maybe give it a try.

Try LMMS, Pure Data, VCV Rack, or SunVox - all powerful free/open-source alternatives that can produce professional-quality electronic music without the Ableton learning curve or cost.

Look up DJ Dave and using Strudel to make music, its fun!

As opposed to what? Spending time learning any of the alternative tools out there? Everything you do is going to have a learning curve, so you might as well start learning the tool that does what you want.

If you don't want to use a computer, you could write and perform exclusively using hardware. Like a modular synthesizer, or a standalone synth, or an Elektron box (Digitakt, Digitone, etc).

Sure, but what will work for you will depend on what you consider "compelling electronic music," it is a big and diverse field and each have different tools which suit them. Without having some idea about your interests and direction in electronic music, you will just get a massive list of random applications which may or may not work for your goals.

puredata or supercollider - although I would honestly recommend Max/MSP over either (but it is commercial). Ableton is great and most DAWs in general are useful and quite similar so the skills are transferable, but they do lend themselves to specific orthodox kinds of composition, dance music and sound collage basically.

https://vcvrack.com/ and https://www.youtube.com/c/omricohen-music

There are open source trackers like Famitracker, and there are kinda-sorta-half-decent open source DAWs now like Ardour and LMMS.

Eurorack?

But it won’t save you time.

Or money.

except if it's VCVRack (for money)

Might as well use Ableton.

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