> how else would Gazans eat?
UNRWA, WFP, etc. You know, the ones with decades of experience in Gaza and other war zones with sites, warehouses, and all the other infrastructure necessary to support a population under siege.
UNRWA, WFP, etc. You know, the ones with decades of experience in Gaza and other war zones with sites, warehouses, and all the other infrastructure necessary to support a population under siege.
The one that has a unique definiton of 'refugee' that doesn't correspond with UNs the normal definition of the term? Where many of the staff work for Hamas? Where their schools teach children to be martyrs? The one many countries have halted funding for because of this?
If you want the UN, fine, UNHCR, the normal UN refugee agency.
if you don’t know that these people are not refugees do more research on UNRWA and UNHCR and then stop telling people that they are refugees when they are not refugees.
gaza isn’t cramped you silly person, You can jump on TikTok or Instagram right now and see people having fun in cafés car dealerships and restaurants.
you could also confirm that Arabs in Israel which are 20% of the population have more rights than arabs in any Arab country - there are Arab members of Parliament talking to other members of Parliament in Arabic in Parliament. Meanwhile, Arabs in most other states can’t even pick their own leaders, be gay, or leave islam safely.
Is Israel, despite being more diverse than any other country in the middle east, the only ethno religious state you dislike or do you really hate the 22 arab states too (and presumably the 23rd arab state you are proposing)? Why is that?
You can identify them from satellite images. They're extremely dense, squalid knots inside Palestinian cities that were never meant to be permanent.
> made up definition of the term of refugee
The Palestinians are refugees by any reasonable definition. They were kicked out of their homes by Israel, forced to flee, and have been stateless ever since.
> gaza isn’t cramped you silly person, You can jump on TikTok or Instagram right now and see people having fun in cafés car dealerships and restaurants.
Most buildings in Gaza have been leveled. You're like a person in 1943 who believes Nazi propaganda about how the Warsaw Ghetto is actually great.
> you could also confirm that Arabs in Israel which are 20% of the population have more rights than arabs in any Arab country
You're ignoring the millions of Arabs (called "Palestinians") who live under Israeli rule with no rights whatsoever. They can even be killed by Israeli settlers or soldiers with no consequences.
> Why is that?
You're so close to calling me an antisemite. Why not just say what you mean. And then I'll laugh in your face and inform you about my own background.
This may be difficult to fathom, but most people are disgusted by seeing Israel's mass murder of Palestinians. Calling people antisemites isn't going to work anymore.
You're not reading what I'm writing. They're visible as extremely dense areas, similar to the notorious "walled city" that used to exist inside Kowloon.
> They are not by UNHCR's definition.
They are actually refugees by the UNHCR's definition. Refugee status also applies to families of people who are expelled. The key element is whether their situation has changed so that they are no longer in exile, displaced, stateless, etc. The Palestinians are still all of those things.
> As discussed, Ben Gurion encouraged Arabs to stay and peacefully join the new state, which is a matter of history and evidenced by Israel's large Arab population. Arab leaders told their people to leave the warzone, which is also documented history. "no u" is not an adequate response.
This is just completely delusional. Of all the people you could have chosen to make this argument about, Ben Gurion is the absolute last person you should choose. He is on the record many times as having supported "transfer," which was the term used back then for what we would now call "ethnic cleansing." There are many quotes from him on the subject. Here is one from 1937, as translated by Benny Morris:
"We do not want to dispossess, [but piecemeal] transfer of population [through Jewish purchase and the removal of Arab tenant farmers] occurred previously, in the [Jezreel] Valley, in the Sharon and in other places ... Now a transfer of a completely different scope will have to be carried out ... Transfer is what will make possible a comprehensive [Jewish] settlement programme. Thankfully, the Arab people have vast empty areas [in Transjordan and Iraq]. Jewish power, which grows steadily, will also increase our possibilities to carry out the transfer on a large scale."
And of course, in 1947-48, he actually oversaw the mass expulsion of 80% of the Arab population of the territory that became Israel. Even after the war, Ben Gurion oversaw the passage of the "present absentee" laws that were used to continue expelling Arab civilians from Israel. The reason why there's an Arab minority in Israel today is because the expulsion was not complete. Without the mass expulsions of 1947-48, Israel would never have had anything remotely approaching a Jewish majority in the first place.
> lol I just showed you what Arabs are posting from Gaza about their lives and you're still pretending I haven't done that.
First, anyone who has seen any of the images coming out of Gaza knows that your whole "they're enjoying cafes" line is cynical and absurd. Over a thousand Palestinians have been killed at the food distribution sites, and yet hundreds of thousands of Palestinians continue to regularly risk their lives just to get small boxes of food. Second, the way you regularly refer to them as them "Arabs" instead of "Palestinians" is a dead giveaway that you're a racist.
> You're a deeply silly person that belives easily disproven conspiracy theories about Jewish people.
I'm Jewish, so you'll have to find a different line of attack.
> No I am not. Those arabs aren't in Israel. Those live outside Israel
They live under Israeli rule, surrounded by Israeli settlements and military checkpoints. They functionally live inside Israel. If you go there, the Israeli soldiers will even tell you that you are in Israel. That's how they see it.
> You are either racist or simply believe racist propaganda, which is fairly commom as a member of the far left. Your background doesn't change anything, identity politics are for the intellectually weak.
It's funny how you still want to continue the "you're an antisemite" line of attack, even knowing that you're talking to a Jewish person. You really don't have any better arguments.
> Of course they would be, but you made up those images.
Again, your cynicism is off the charts.
Israel has provided 0 proof, only allegations, and even then it's only a handful of people in an organization of tens of thousands. That's literally better than the ratio of rapist to citizen in Israel.
Numbers for proof: Israel claims 12 out of 30k (13k in Gaza), but the UN says only 9 "may have been involved". That's 0.1% of Palestinians in Gaza. There are 1.3k Israeli rapists in prison (not including the ones that fled the US to avoid prison) and 80% of rape allegations are closed without investigation. That's 0.1% of Israelis.
OK. If I ran a supoposed aid organization and someone unjustly accused my staff of being terrorists, I wouldn't say "maybe" but you do you.
Israel is arguably the last colonial state to be founded, at a time when colonialism was on the way out. The Israelis expelled a massive number of people into the surrounding countries, and have since refused to allow the Palestinians to return to their homes, which are inside what is now Israel. The Palestinians naturally want to return home, and the neighboring countries do not want to provide for millions of refugees created by Israel, so the Palestinians are in permanent limbo.
The obvious solution would be for Israel to allow the Palestinians to return home, and to pay for their resettlement. But Israel refuses to do that, because the entire idea behind Israel is that the country must have a decisive Jewish majority.
As for your various accusations against UNRWA, they're just a rehash of the standard Israeli propaganda against the agency. The actual reason why Israel dislikes UNRWA is because the existence of Palestinian refugees is a problem for Israel.
A huge part of the Exodus was the Arab league telling Arabs to leave their homes in 1948 while they destroyed the new Jewish state, because they didn’t just want Jordan and the proposed second Arab state from British Palestine they wanted everything from the river to the sea, which probably would’ve destroyed all the jewish people (witness all the violence pre-1948 from Arabs to Jews). Meanwhile, contrary to arab nationalist claims, ben gurion asked Arabs to stay and peacefully join the new country which is why Israel is 20% Arab.
The other thing you’ve omitted is the greater number of Jews that were expelled from Arab states. you haven’t asked for them to be able to return either, but it’s probably not a good idea as they would be killed, as is typical for anybody who doesn’t follow or has left Islam in Arabic countries. Witness the current genocide against the druze people in Syria.
saying my points are a rehash of standard propaganda is silly: anyone can verify that we know UNRWA staff are members of hamas, that UNRWA facilities are routinely used by Hamas, that UNRWA schools teach children to desire to be martyrs and that UNRWA has a different definition of refugee than UNHCR. The very obvious solution is UNRWA should be disbanded.
That's a myth. It simply isn't true. Israeli historians have gone through the reasons why Palestinians left every town, and almost all of them were either expelled at gunpoint or fled in the face of advancing Zionist / Israeli forces. Only the wealthiest Palestinian families had the means to leave in advance, as they saw the war coming.
> ben gurion asked Arabs to stay and peacefully join the new country which is why Israel is 20% Arab.
This is such an absurd claim to anyone who is even remotely familiar with Ben Gurion's life and politics. Ben Gurion was one of the most important supporters of the idea of expelling Palestinians.
> The other thing you’ve omitted is the greater number of Jews that were expelled from Arab states.
They were expelled in the decades afterwards, as a consequence of the bad blood Israel created throughout the Arab world with the expulsion of the Palestinians. In any case, two wrongs do not make a right, and the treatment of Jews in the Arab world after Israel's establishment does not justify Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in 1947-48.
> you haven’t asked for them to be able to return either
If they want to, they should be able to. But they don't want to, so this is a moot point.
> they would be killed, as is typical for anybody who doesn’t follow or has left Islam in Arabic countries
This is a historically ignorant claim. Muslim countries were historically more religiously tolerant than Christian countries. That changed for the Jews in the Arab world for two reasons: the foundation of Israel and imported antisemitic ideas from Europe.
Palestine is actually a major counterexample to your claim about Muslim countries. There are many Christian Palestinians, and they have been very prominent in the Palestinian national movement (Edward Said was Christian, for example). If you've followed the news, you'll know that Israel has repeatedly bombed Christian churches in Gaza, which is why the Israeli government got into a row with the Pope recently.
> UNRWA staff are members of hamas
This is like saying that McDonald's staff are murderers. A tiny number of UNWRA staff (you can literally count them on two hands) were alleged to be Hamas members, out of 30k employees.
> UNRWA schools teach children to desire to be martyrs
The idea that Palestinians have to be taught by the UN to hate Israel is absurd. They hate Israel for the same reason Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto hated Germany. The UN does a remarkable job of instituting neutral education in that environment, and is constantly bending over backwards to appease Israel, including allowing Israel to review their educational materials and list of employees.
> The very obvious solution is UNRWA should be disbanded.
It's the obvious solution if you want to starve and immiserate the Palestinians.
> That's a myth. It simply isn't true.
What part? That the Arab league wanted full control of multiethnic Palestine? That they tried to stop Israel being created? That they intended to make Israel a warzone?
> > ben gurion asked Arabs to stay and peacefully join the new country which is why Israel is 20% Arab.
> This is such an absurd claim
It's history. "Ben-Gurion’s 1948 Speech to arab population"
> In any case, two wrongs do not make a right
So do you support a right of return for Jews to Arab states or not? How will you guarantee their safety?
> Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in 1947-48
There were no Palestinians in 1947 which you should be aware of before you discuss this topic. And Arabs in 1948 were not ethnically cleansed by anyone. Look at the population statistics.
> Muslim countries were historically more religiously tolerant than Christian countries. That changed for the Jews in the Arab world for two reasons: the foundation of Israel and imported antisemitic ideas from Europe.
lol. Arab violence against Jews was commonplace, much like it's still commonplace. You can look up cases of widespread violence from before Israel became independent very easily. Also the grand mufti aligning himself with Hitler. Hence partitioning.
> If you've followed the news, you'll know that Israel has repeatedly bombed Christian churches in Gaza.
They hit the facade of a church by accident, hit the facade, owned the error.
> A tiny number of UNWRA staff (you can literally count them on two hands) were alleged to be Hamas members
And admitted by UNRWA.
> UNRWA schools teach children to desire to be martyrs
The idea that Palestinians have to be taught by the UN to hate Israel is absurd.
> They hate Israel for the same reason Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto hated Germany.
Because they're brainwashed by Islamic extremism?
> The UN does a remarkable job of instituting neutral education in that environment
So you think wanting to be martyrs and kill jews is neutral?
> Including allowing Israel to review their educational materials and list of employees.
I suspect what you and I have seen wasn't reviwed by Israel and I bet you you know this.
> (disbanding UNRWA) is the obvious solution if you want to starve and immiserate the Palestinians.
They're already miserable. Hamas is stockpiling their food and charging them for it. UNRWA and Hamas need to go.
Do you support reintegrating Pakistan and India? Do you think Pakistan and India are legitimite states? Why or why not?
That the Palestinians left on their own accord because the Arab League or whoever on their side told them to.
> lol. Arab violence against Jews was commonplace
No, it wasn't. It was much rarer than in Europe.
> They hit the facade of a church by accident, hit the facade, owned the error.
Ah yes, they've bombed every church "by accident" now.
> And admitted by UNRWA.
Actually, UNWRA was not able to confirm the Israeli government accusations, because the Israeli government refused to provide evidence. But you're tacitly admitting here that only a few UNWRA employees were ever accused of being involved with Hamas.
> Because they're brainwashed by Islamic extremism?
Because they live under military occupation. The Palestinian national movement was secular for decades, is multireligious, and not motivated by Islamism in any fundamental sense.
> So you think wanting to be martyrs and kill jews is neutral?
This has nothing to do with Jews. It has to do with Israel. Stop pretending this is 1940 Germany.
I’ve mentioned a few times but reiterating you can easily look up massacres of Jews by Arabs prior to 1948. Arabs colonised the Middle East, their religious includes fighting Jews at the end of time, and they commonly hate anyone else existing in the area. Look at what happened to the Christians and Druze.
> Look at what happened to the Christians and Druze.
You know that Christians are a significant part of the Palestinian population, right? They suffered the same fate as Muslim Palestinians at the hands of Israel - mass expulsion, theft of their homes and property, and military occupation.
* Israel didn't exist yet.
* These weren't "isolated cases of violence." There were Zionist terrorist groups behind these campaigns of terrorism. Leading figures in the two most important Zionist terrorist groups were later elected Prime Minster of Israel.
* Zionist groups carried out many terrorist attacks on Arab civilians, not just on British forces.
* "Islam attacking entire Christian countries, ...": Are you talking about the 7th Century again? Why are we discussing the Eastern Roman Empire? I thought we were talking about the modern world.