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Comment by shaneos | Hacker News Reader

Author here. I find this to be a pretty cynical take. I tried to express that if I build something and it makes my kids smile then it stays in the app. You appear to have a different take on it. Should we not try to make children enjoy using the tools they use? What's the alternative? Make you app actively hostile and difficult to they'll go touch grass? I'm honestly not clear on the point you're making here.

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It would help if you hadn't repeatedly used exploitative marketing/business language like “user retention” and “monetization”. Your desire to delight children and make them smile is commendable if that is the end-goal, but the text reads like the end-goal is to hook children and make money off of them.

The app's audience is children. The blog post's audience are professional designers and engineers. I am speaking their language. People build apps for a variety of reasons - I started off with this app just making it for my kids, until I decided to make an effort to find more users - and one of those reasons is to make a living off the time spent working on it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with hoping to be compensated for your time and effort, and that is why we must discuss user retention and monetization. These are not dirty or exploitative terms in and of themselves, they are simply tools used to measure an app's usage and current level of progress towards your goals so that you can react accordingly.

What is exploitative is the way almost all supposedly child friendly apps try to trick or corrupt children with ads and gamified purchases. My post comes out very explicitly against this, which I presume you read.

I did, and I do genuinely find your project (and approach) commendable! I'm sorry I didn't say that because of the focus of my comment.

I was merely responding to the kind of language you used to describe it. You call it the language of designers and engineers, but I'm sorry, that's not my language! To me, that is the language of commercial entrepreneurs and capitalists and they give me a gag reflex.

I would love for you (and everyone else) to be able to live in a world where you can pursue this kind of passion project without having to worry about “making a living”. The commercial and capitalist mindset is what's standing in your way.

This actually captured my intended point, which was expressed poorly and hastily. It's not my intention to twist or neglect the good intentions of the OP in designing an app for his kids, merely pointing out that some of the language read more sinister.

You both fall for the false dichotomy trap. If anything, this remark should be taken as criticism towards parents who find it much more convenient to use an app and a tablet, rather than buying physical stuff, have to put it away, and to keep a close eye on their kids so they don't ruin the wallpaper or run with pointy pens in their hands etc. Certainly the thing you need on rainy days or when you have other things to do. Uti, non abuti (use but don't abuse)

Struggle is very good for learning, I remember as a child enjoying very difficult interfaces because I was proud of being able to navigate the software when I finally get there, becoming very efficient with it, and I learned way more about the domain. (I'm thinking for example Cubase, reason, Photoshop at the time, most linux softwares, vim,...)

While easy to use softwares are more 'enjoyable' and the dopamine reward is high for small actions, it also prevent to develop some ability and resilience in navigating harder things. When the software complexity increases, users get annoyed and don't use it correctly because they were never exposed to much complexity before. (thinking about medical softwares that require many many actions to encode a patient, finance softwares, etc..)

Now, not all softwares are made to improve one efficiency. In your case, the app allows a children to express its creativity in other ways, which is very valuable also. So I think it is good that the interface and the interaction are easy, the focus should be on the creativity and not on the manipulation.

Overcomplicating interfaces is bad for usability even if someone might feel accomplished for sorting through the mess.

Learning can and should be also through practice and raising the bar, I agree, but don't mix learning as a general concept applied to a population with your own survivorship bias.

I think both kind of applications should exist in parallel. I generally dislike current trend in professional softwares that try to be easy to use, at the cost of less power or more clicks to do a simple action.

Professional apps should stay professional and more time should be spent in training power users.

I'm trying not to mix with my own survivorship bias,but I tend to believe that current trends of design remove the existance of advanced users at a young age. The applications are so polished and limiting that you don't spend time trying to do complex things with them.

I find bugs in old apps were a feature for learning. If it doesn't work, you try to understand why. Curiosity is intrinsic to young children, until we remove it by giving them something that never bug or limits their possibilities.

I loved your writeup. Thank you for taking the time to share what you've learned.

It's odd to see such nonsensical detractors here on HN.

I'm working on a game for my kids to play, so I for one am appreciative and taking notes for my own implementation. I've definitely observed at least some of the things mentioned, so hopefully combining those with your others will save me some time and grief. Thanks!

So happy to hear it’s helpful! I’d love to check out the game when it’s done

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