Taking GNOME to the Next Level | Hacker News Reader

Taking GNOME to the Next Level

afaikblog.wordpress.com

57 pointsXyzodiac59 comments

> The way that the tray is triggered has also been changed. The hot corner – which many people had problems with – has been replaced. Instead, the whole of the bottom screen edge now acts as a trigger area; letting the mouse rest there for a short period will cause the tray to appear. We plan to improve this behaviour in subsequent releases, so that a certain about of pressure against the screen edge is required to open the tray (we need to wait for changes down the stack before we can achieve this).

Honestly, this makes me nervous. The Gnome team often seems far too willing to ship a bad experience because it will help "drain the swamp".

I'm looking forward to it - at worst, it means they've just increased the area in which that bar can be activated.

I have a dual-screen setup with the primary on the left; that bottom-right corner is often (but not always, weirdly enough) quite hard to hit if there isn't a notification there. This will be a boon to users like me, and I don't see a downside - it seems strictly an improvement, even if they want to improve it further later on...

dfc: you've been hellbanned.

"Draining the swamp" is a reference to a 2.0 era initiative on the part of the Gnome team to stop hacking their way around platform deficiencies, and instead fix them directly. That is a big part of the reason there are lots of Gnome-affiliated hackers involved in the lower levels of the desktop Linux stack.

What I find amazingly idiotic is that when I try to access the url from India, I get this message

"The URL you requested has been blocked as per instructions from Department of Telecom(CHNN). URL = afaikblog.wordpress.com/2012/08/31/taking-gnome-3-to-the-next-level/"

Now, why the department of telecommunications is taking down articles on Gnome, one can only speculate. But, I think that they think Gnome is a bittorrent client. It's the only reasonable explanation. :)

I'm not getting any such errors on Airtel. FYI - the blocking of torrent sites by ISPs got them penalised for it (http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/internet/article3738269.ece)

Sigh. India, where bureaucracy and logic are at war with each other.

Bureaucracy and logic (and common sense) have been in perpetual war everywhere since the invention of the concept of government.

Gnome may not be dead and it's nice to see them work hard to achieve a suitable user experience. However, I personally don't like the look of it. To me it seems the windows don't fit the rest of the U.I. The borders are too big, in my opinion and the buttons don't "feel" right or look right.

Usability wise, it's still lacking, I think. I'm a grumpy sob, I guess. I hope they succeed but I have to be honest, I don't think they will.

/end grump

Thankfully, for those of us who prefer our desktops to work well rather than look good, there are always third party options for themes. I personally combine the "Holo" Gnome Shell theme with the "Adwaita Dark" Gtk theme, and I think the result is a vast improvement.

What I want is to be able to use the Gnome Shell at the same time as a panel. Currently you can only pick one. Gnome Shell (and Unity) suck at managing multiple instances of apps or their windows which covers most of what I run due to a dual screen setup. So I need the panel for that, but then can't use the Shell.

I did have both working in an earlier release, but the panel was from a third party and they break on every gnome release.

KDE could be easily configured to behave like that.

disclaimer: KDE contributor.

It has been a while since I last tried KDE so I tried again - using Kubuntu. All I got was a bottom panel and never found any way of getting an equivalent to the Gnome Shell.

But it also reminded me why I have never liked KDE - it just feels too busy with too much going on. I prefer things simpler visually as well as functionally. Yes, I'm one of those people who are quite happy when Gnome go around removing configurability (right up till the point it is an option I use). I try to use defaults as much as possible and find it important that they are appealing and well thought out.

Well, you should look for 'Screen Edges' in System Settings. There you can define the proper action for top-left corner (set it to Present Windows effect). Also, you can remove the bottom panel and/or configure it to look like windows, mac or gnome shell.

But if you are a person who prefers to stick with defaults, well, KDE's defaults are very old and plain.

That isn't what Gnome shell does - many window managers can do that and it is mostly useless to me since I have so many windows (that are the same) open - taskbars work easier.

The useful bits of Gnome shell show up when you press the Windows key (far easier than trying to find a spot on a dual screen setup). Sure you get the window selector, but far more usefully you can start typing stuff and it finds useful matches (apps, contacts etc). It also has a nicer notification system, as well as improved 'tray' (whatever they call it).

Taking GNOME to the Previous Level?

tired of gnome PR.. gnome is dead, let it RIP

On what planet is it dead?

Gnome is still the default GUI on a lot of operating systems. In fact, I'm quite fond of Gnome Shell on one of my laptops.

What bothers m most is what I perceive as a need to follow Microsoft. I fear things like the lock screen thing will prove confusing for many users.

As fair as I am concerned GNOME is dead and rotting but the major distros, seemingly blind to this, have left it sitting at the head of the table.

Among the linux users I know, there are two categories. Those who change their DE, and those who complain endlessly about it.

Every linux user I know (except maybe two) runs gnome3/gnome-shell and loves it. One of those two run gnome3 with unity. So only one user I know isn't running gnome - he runs kde. He plans to try out gnome for a month after watching me with it.

I love where they're going with gnome3. I understand the frustration people have, because there are some places where it superficially feels like 2 steps forward, 2 steps back. However, if you use it you can feel how good the platform decisions seem to have been, and if you watch it improve with each point release you really get a feel that these guys are enjoying providing top notch Free Software again (gnome2 was stagnant). Also, if you want to use gnome2....just freaking do so.

I have yet to meet anybody IRL who actually likes Gnome3. I see a few posters on the 'net from time to time who claim to like it, but that's it.

OTOH, I see a lot of people saying they've switch to Mate, or Cinammon, or KDE, or XFCE, etc. Personally, I've switched to KDE and couldn't be happier. Good riddance to Gnome, as far as I'm concerned.

The only person I know that uses gnome3 and claims to sort of like it (mind, he still complains about it all the time) reminds me of myself four or five years ago when I was trying to convince myself that I still liked KDE, I liked where 4.x was going, and was full of all sorts of excuses for it. And don't think I am exaggerating the extent of my own distortion; I was saying these things about KDE 4.0.

So every time somebody responds to criticism of what GNOME has become with "Well it has all been going swimmingly for me. The few wrinkles don't bother me!", I can't help but see myself, lying to myself.

While I haven't tried KDE in years, I'm sure the experience has dramatically improved and it is now a viable DE choice. Hopefully, in four or five years GNOME will be the same way. But really, there can be no defending of the current state of GNOME, nor the state of the early 4.x releases.

We must have different linux-using friends, then. Those I know that use Gnome3 don't particularly like it, but use it because it's just there (including me). Others detest it and use kde, mate, or xfce (with one guy on a heavily customised fvwm).

> Among the linux users I know, there are two categories. Those who change their DE, and those who complain endlessly about it.

You forgot a third, important, group: those who can adapt to change and continue working. I would also consider grouping your two categories into one because most people who change their DE also complain endlessly (and quite loudly) about every other DE.

Unless you work on a desktop environment (as in "developing it, not developing under it") I doubt the time you spend considering its various virtues and shortcomings will ever pay off.

That is a third possibility, but I don't know anybody that fits into that category.

The problem is finding a replacement. All the big players have decided at the same time that We Must Change The Desktop Metaphor Because... Just Because.

And those running Lucid LTS and will never hellgrade to Precise!

CentOS 6.3 and above will preserve most of your Lucid experience, and has support for some years. I have CentOS installed on my desktop PC.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8403291/centos.html

You will need to do some fiddling with repositories, research yum-priorities plug in and the various additional repositories.

I have Ubuntu 12.04 with Unity on the laptop and find it quite useful on the smaller screen. Looking at the Gnome 3.6 development screen shots on the original article, I might hunt up a ppa and try it...

It might get you similar versions of various software but RedHat derived distros (like CentOS) and Debian derived distros (like Ubuntu) are very different indeed. Were it not for the common Linux kernel, you might have as well be recommending FreeBSD.

Those are two completely different roots:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Gldt.svg

True, and one of my reasons for putting centos on the desktop was to educate myself about the differences under the hood. I'm aware of the Upstart/init difference, and apparmor/selinux difference. Any references you have to share would be most welcome.

I seem to find that from an end user/desktop user point of view, CentOS delivers much of what Lucid/Squeeze delivered except no banshee (mono libraries not installed). I therefore point out the existence of RHEL clones whenever Ubuntu folk express concern at the shift from Gnome 2 to Unity or Gnome Shell when upgrading from Lucid.

CentOS 6 uses Upstart.

What was impressive for me in gnome3 and unity was the huge move away from Windows happening in mainstream distribution defaults. It looks to me like we are still in good place of trying out other peoples ideas without copying their products.

> huge move away from Windows

With Windows 8, even Microsoft itself is moving away from the traditional Windows interface. So I'm not sure whether Gnome and Unity are actually being creative in departing from Windows-like interfaces, or merely following the latest trend. The trend used to be led by Microsoft, and the Linux Desktop followed it at the time. Now the trend is led by Apple, and the Linux Desktop follows it again.

The OS X shell hasn't changed terribly much since it was first released. GNOME Shell ("GNOME 3") was publicly designed prior to anyone seeing Windows 8 or Unity (in fact, Unity started after the GNOME 3 development process began).

GNOME has more in common with webOS than OS X, Windows 8, or (perish the thought) Unity.

Yeah, totally agree. Gnome is far from perfect, but I use it, and it's lot better than all the whining would suggest.

I think Miguel's obsession with all-things-MS, however, is both counter-productive (e.g. the huge diversion of resources into the utter dead end of Mono), and, frankly, kind of bizarre...

>Gnome is still the default GUI on a lot of operating systems

The one statement does not contradict the other. For one, any operating system that uses Gnome as its GUI besides Linux has an insignificant user population (FreeBSD, NetBSD, etc).

I suspect that the grandparent post was using 'operating systems' to mean 'GNU/Linux distribution'.

One of the things that I like about the GNU/Linux 'ecosystem' (by which I mean the plethora of distributions and the various packages available within the repositories of those distributions) is the huge array of choice, especially for devising a GUI that fits the user.

I accept that the 'sensible default' issue is real.

Using Gnome all day, nope not dead. Gnome Shell is quite a good environment. I think many people just complain because it's a change. People don't like change.

Totally agree with you, people who don't like what happening can just leave and start using MATE or XFCE instead. GNOME's directions isen't even targeted at the previous userbase anyway. I'm too young to have got into GNOME2 as much as it seems some people have done, but seriously it's just silly to complain and whine. I know some also includes very contructive critism in their complains but most people don't, and that is those I dislike.

As a long time user of Gnome 2.x, I welcome most of the changes made in Gnome Shell, haven't had any worthwhile complaints since the 3.4 release. It's cleaner, faster, has better window management features, and just gets out of the way better than Gnome 2.x ever did.

Totally agree with you. I didn't like the gnome-shell when it first came out (slow, buggy as ...), but I like it now: it's very clean, does what I need with little effort, and stays out of the way otherwise.

I wish there were more themes around though ... it seemed like themes were plentiful and easily usable in Gnome 2 but they seem kinda thin on the ground with Gnome 3.

[I gather the WM in Gnome 3 is compatible with Gnome 2 themes, but GTK 3 cannot use GTK 2 themes ... or something. I dunno. The multitude of theme formats is confusing.]

The real key is find Gtk themes that are compatible with both the Gtk2 and Gtk3 engines. Combine that with a good Gnome-Shell theme and a good font, and things actually look really nice.

I actually just found a couple new themes that are really great:

- Mediterranean Dark (Gtk+/Window themes): http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/MediterraneanNight?co...

- Delorean Dark (Shell theme): http://killhellokitty.deviantart.com/art/DeLorean-Dark-0-94-...

Okey, that's cool. I have to look into gnome-shell some time.

GNOME's directions isen't even targeted at the previous userbase anyway

Yes, this is a criticism that has been levelled at them by devs who have left the project: they abandoned their former audience without having a clear idea of who their new audience is.

To be fair, I think they never had a very clear idea of who their old audience was either ... :]

[I'm a Gnome user...]

Actually people complain because they need to install an extension to remove the accessibility icon from the top panel.

No, they complain about the panel being ddifferent and the workspaces and stuff like that..

You must be a Gnome Dev too! You aren't listening either.

lol i'm no gnome dev but i read all that crap on HN since gnome-shell was released (and before unity), so yeah, i can read.

If people are too stubborn to try something new, they can still install fvwm95 and live in desktop-yesterday-land for the rest of their lives, no problem.

Gnome is very much alive, the blog entry from a month or so ago was concerning but it's still very much a lively project.

It's "alive" in the sense that there's still some activity going on, but it's shedding users, and it's becoming irrelevant.

I liken it to XFree86. While it may have been very popular and widely-used at one point, it didn't take long at all for users and developers to flee once things started looking bad.

People just haven't been happy with GNOME 3. That's a fact. And with no improvements visible on the horizon, more and more people are moving to MATE (and a few to Cinnamon).

GNOME can't survive in its current form if people and developers continue to leave it in favor of better desktop environments.

Compare the amount of GNOME developers discussing GNOME development at http://planet.gnome.org/ to the number of MATE developers discussing MATE development at http://planet.mate-desktop.org/

I don't use Gnome anymore, but 9/10 Linux users I know use it (well, Gnome or KDE). That's not very dead.

Gnome3, or forks of Gnome2 like Mate?

so, what do you use then?

icewm, fluxbox, dwm. I prefer dwm, but fluxbox and icewm are more often available.

Gnome is still alive and kicking, not to mention talks are in place for GnomeOS at the moment.

Check out the OSTree page on the gnome wiki, and the mailing list. It's actually... quite cool.

https://live.gnome.org/OSTree/

LWN wrote a good article on GNOME OS at https://lwn.net/Articles/512783/

Submitted to HN at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4455028

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