Hacker News Reader

Ah, I wondered what nationality you were. (I'm Portuguese too, but not natively.)

Fuck is a bit strong for this type of article. Also, rather than saying 'how the fuck', we would say, at least in American English, "what the fuck is 'trim' in Python?" or even more clearly, "what the fuck is PHP's trim in Python?"

But yeah, I have the same problem when moving through languages. I know the concept, but I have to read through the docs to find out the exact function syntax.

.com.br - Brazil???

Yup

I appreciate your remark on this post.

In general I have to say I am sick of people using the "F" word so lightly on this forum. I have an 11 years old very curious daughter that I adore, she get on my laptop all the time and is very interested in what I do. I have been very concern about what will happen if she sees that I’m reading stuff with such language in it. We should all do something about this.

Demod me if you want but this is a real problem from the concern parent that I am.

Mine are 9 and 7. If your 11 year old isn't already using the word "fuck", I would be concerned about social norms. The fact is, the Internet is a big scary place, and Hacker News is the very least of the problem, so let's not bother addressing this issue.

I’m far from being an expert on this, so take it easy from a fellow parent. There’s a huge difference about you reading or using profanity near you child than him/her hearing it on TV or reading on the internet.

If my son is reading over my shoulder, the bad language I'm really worried about him picking up is Perl.

Thanks for that - I just got a room full of odd looks for my audible outburst when I read that line!

Don't forget to tip your waiter.

I agree. Eleven years old is ~6th grade; she probably hears words like "fuck" on a regular basis at school.

The only logical arguments I've heard for not letting kids swear are:

- It's against the social norm (it'll get them in trouble)

- It lessens the words' value.

Since kids invariably will encounter swear words at some point, trying to shield them is pretty hopeless. The best solution is to mitigate the two problems above; teach them when they shouldn't swear (mainly in front of adults) and not to swear like a sixth-grader ("Hey, man, what the fuck are you doing today? Shit, I've got a fuckton of goddamn homework.")

Swearing at people is another thing entirely, though.

Our policy is similar. Erin and I don't avoid swearing at home ourselves, but the kids are strictly forbidden from swearing. It's not about the words themselves (I see no moral issue with swearing), but rather about discipline and respect; this is a simple bright-line boundary.

Respect goes both ways, if you expect some you should start by giving.

My kids are expected to respect my judgement and authority, in that they are kids and I am an adult. I am expected to respect many things about them, but their authority is not among them. I am also allowed to stay up really late, a privilege that is also not reciprocal.

I think I'm done now talking about swearing on Hacker News.

For what it's worth, I've had good results with the opposite approach. My daughter (now 7) has been allowed to curse as long as she's been allowed to talk.

That said, there are boundaries that she understands clearly -- she's not allowed to use curse words at school, for the same reasons I choose not to swear at work. She knows and understands that it isn't an appropriate place to use foul language. At home, she's free to use whatever language crosses her mind.

She is also not allowed to curse AT people anywhere, because it's mean.

She's a smart, responsible, well adjusted child who rarely uses foul language. Occasionally we'll hear something like "I can't figure out how to work this damn thing," when playing on the Wii, but she doesn't run around like a Tourette's sufferer either.

You trust your daughter more than I trust mine. =)

The beautiful mystery of parenting is that neither of us really knows if we're right, and we might not ever.

I'm not saying that my way is the right way. It might be, and I suspect that it is for my daughter, but I don't know you or your family. The premise for my ideology focuses around 2 things: 1) I don't want to be a hypocrite. I curse all the time, and while I'm mindful of my tongue in professional / social interactions, I do use foul language, and 2) I was more worried about banishing expletives making them into a forbidden fruit.

My daughter is 6 now and we approach her swearing EXACTLY the same way that you do. She is in 2nd grade now and knows that swearing is not appropriate at school. She also knows that it isn't appropriate at certain relatives' houses (one set of grandparents; at the other set, it's ok). At some relatives' places, it's perfectly ok. At some of her friends' houses it's no problem; at others' it would not go over well. Stephy (my daughter) knows that swearing is entirely and completely acceptable at home at all times, so she exercises that right with a full range of expletives, without punishment, at home. She has learned where it is appropriate and where it isn't from growing up with it from day one of learning to speak.So-called "swear words" have always just been normal words for her, with a healthy sprinkling of knowing when and where to use them properly (for example, she knows, even at home, that it isn't acceptable to swear AT someone; that is literally her only limitation on it. But "conversational swearing" is perfectly fine and normal at home all the time). She has never crossed the line or been inappropriate, and I don't suspect that she ever will. She is growing up with a full range of colorful words at her disposal, but also with the intelligence to know when to use them. To us, that is the way it should be and we are perfectly content with letting her swear to her heart's content anytime she wants at home.

I am not a parent, so I'll admit a skewed perspective here, or perhaps a lack of context entirely, but I think you need to be very careful about putting forth authority -- what I assume you mean as discipline and respect -- as a sufficient basis for different standards of behavior.

From watching people grow up in my generation under the same sort of philosophy, I've seen them develop the mind set that anything put forth by authority must be correct, and in the process hold obviously contrary points of view without batting an eye. One of the causes I've been able to gather is that they spent a large part of their growing years being told how things are and to accept that as sufficient evidence, but not having what is asserted jive with their own impressions. Enough of that, if they don't rebel they develop the sense that their own impressions and intuitions are completely flawed, and should never be trusted without someone else to tell how things are.

I'm not saying that you are wrong to enforce a no swearing policy with your kids -- that's an entirely different discussion that you have already said you don't want, so I won't push for it. But from my teenage perspective of not so many years ago, I can imagine being very different -- less curious, less assertive, less independent -- if my parents had been more authoritarian, and not to be harsh but less reasonable, approach to setting ground rules for my behavior.

I understand where you're coming from, but if you knew me better (or, I imagine, any parent that writes on HN), you'd know that isn't an issue in this case. And, there's a difference between thinking for yourself and growing up incapable of recognizing boundaries.

I've gathered from enough people that being a parent runs a moderate likelihood of changing my perspective on this; time will tell. And I also wasn't presuming on your capabilities as a parent, or anything else about you; just on the argument you laid out here. :-)

And I agree, there is a difference between thinking for oneself and learning about boundaries. Except that I could imagine my 10-12 year old self wondering why my primary role models seemed to be demanding one form of behavior, and then exemplifying a different form. At this point, I could only imagine thinking a boundary had been placed on where I was allowed to think for myself. They'd seem like boundaries for the sake of having boundaries. Maybe you see it differently or don't care what I think, but I'm still confused.

It’s funny to see folks thinking of raisin kids like a writing an algorithm. Let me tell you that the role model thing is not a vain and empty factor you raising children. They must trust you and look at you as a last resort, they know things are bad out there they expect home to be a safe place; you should do your best to provide that to them.

Duly noted.

I don't disagree. You should definitely be a good role model to your kids; in fact, I feel that I hold parents to a higher standard than most. I just fail to see how letting your kids see the word "fuck" is intrinsically bad for them.

I got hauled into the Principal's office in grade 4 or 5 for yelling "SHIT!" in the playground. The Principal asked what my parents would think when they found out that I'd been swearing. I told him that they wouldn't mind, since it was appropriate in the circumstances. He let me go.

If I was 11 and discovered that "trim" was called "strip" in Python, I'd have observed it as curious and gone back to programming. I wouldn't have been frustrated and the idea to get angry about it wouldn't have even occurred to me.

If an 11 year old is using fuck I would be concerned about social norms. There's no reason to swear playing kickball.

I agree. At 11, I would be concerned if my child WASN'T swearing! It's now normal for an 11 year old to be using the word "FUCK" alot, so I would wonder about one who wasn't saying that on a regular basis instead of worrying about it if he/she was. Let kids cuss! They qare going to eventually anyway.

Cmon dude really? Should anyone on HN be concerned about your spawn? That's your job, not ours, and this isn't Dave and Busters.

Sorry if that sounds dickish, but this is really the last place any of us should be concerned about children reading, specifically your children.

You could install a greasemonkey profanity filter:

http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/4175

You could teach her that "fuck" is a good word to express a specific emotion. Using it all the time risks other people thinking she is vulgar. Using it at just the right moment can be very effective in conveying her thinking.

I have a new daughter, and this is the approach I'm going to try. We'll try to convey that there are no bad words, per se -- only more or less appropriate times to use words. We'll also point out others' likely reactions.

I still remember how in University a friend of mine who "never" swore got everyone to pay attention when she finally did say "fuck".

Which specific emotion does "fuck" express? It seems to me like the word doesn't really express a specific emotion, rather tends to add some vague sense of anger to whatever else you were trying to express.

True. The "specific emotion" bit seems like nonsense, in retrospect. I guess it would be more accurate to say that "fuck" can be an effective way to convey sharp emphasis, or the vague frustration you mentioned.

The word "fuck" won't hurt your daughter.

I think it's a really awesome idea. As others have pointed out, "what the fuck" is the right way to say it.

More common than that these days is "WTF" (the abbreviation). This allows you to get the same point across without using profanity. (Keep in mind that in some environments like schools or corporations, sites with profanity can get flagged and blocked.)

So maybe "WTF is ___ in ___?"

I gotta disagree about "what the fuck" being the right way to say it. I am not concerned about the rebellious nature of cursing, but I am bothered by using words that contribute so little to the meaning. I've heard arguments that they serve to express things in a more emotional manner. Like anything, they've been so over used that the emotional enhancement is diluted to simply being a socially rebellious expression.

Edit: On this topic, I think people, at some level, are aware of this. That's why it's not as commonly found in written word vs. spoken word.

The nice thing about it here is that it very effectively conveys the frustration that underlies the value proposition for the site.

At some level I would like to use this sort of site for the humor value. It not only sympathizes with me; it empathizes with me AND works to solve my problem - so long as it works right. If it doesn't I'd be adding a few more colorful words to the mix :-)

Edit: Grammar

Oh, I think what I meant was "how the fuck" was not idiomatic English, and that what he meant to say was "what the fuck." I more meant the "proper" way to say the phrase he was referring to.

Of course, if you didn't have this service, you'd have to RTFM.

Which means Read The Faq and Manual... :)

Among younger people and HN readers it's no big deal, but among other groups it's highly offensive: older, non-technical, professional, parents, probably women in general, etc. Obscenity can spice up writing, but in technical essays it makes the writing look unprofessional. I would hesitate to send a link to your site to a manager or woman that I did not know well.

The domain xsyinz.com is available...

While I don't give a fuck about your choice of words, I am unable to read the article as "Websense" blocked the website as pr0n coz of words in the URL :-(

I'm just tired of reading blog posts full of swearing. It's always the same bland content without nuances.

I'm sure that you could have written a better post, without resorting to swearing - or perhaps you belong to the Zed Shaw school of writing.

Apologies if this gets mentioned elsewhere, but I suspect you'll have trouble dealing with two functions in separate languages that do _almost_ the exact same thing, but differ in some tiny way that screws people up. Maybe they return different values on an error, one does it in-place while the other returns the new value, or even worse are the really tricky differences like what happens if certain variables are/aren't static.

I think a well timed & placed swear word adds some zing. As long as you're posts and titles aren't filled with them, you should be fine.