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Comment by freediver | Hacker News Reader

Kagi founder here. I notice you bring this up consistently in Kagi discussions.

A search engine's job is to deliver the best possible results. We evaluate API sources on search quality, not geopolitics. Yandex represents 2% of our costs but contributes meaningfully to search quality - removing it would harm all users while having minimal economic impact. We've used their API since 2019 and evaluate all sources purely on technical merit: result quality, latency, privacy terms, and legal compliance. The moment politics influences search results is the moment we stop being a search engine.

I've written a longer explanation of our position and how Kagi works technically which you can find here https://kagifeedback.org/d/5445-reconsider-yandex-integratio...

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I cancelled my kagi subscription upon seeing this response.

I donate to Ukraine to defend itself from Russia. I lost a family member to Russian artillery as well while providing medical aid to civilians. I very much do not want my dollars to fund the very thing that my donations are intended to defend against.

I'm going to assume you run a similar policy with Chinese search providers. After seeing Chinese warships off the Taiwanese Coast running invasion exercises (a roughly $30 billion annual expenditure for them last I checked), I very much want to minimize my funding of them.

I understand the argument you are making but war is far more serious than "politics".

I take it you don't use any phones, especially no apple products then, right? After all, apples gigantic sponsorship of the Chinese government is well covered at this point.

Clothing is also a no-no, right? After all, there is *literally no way to purchase clothing from any store that hasn't been produced - in part - by effective slave labor and Chinese machinery.

Really, consumer boycott of nations is infeasible in a global market. The only thing you're doing is virtue signalling.

This is a silly argument. Clothing is not optional; Kagi is. They are deciding to go without an optional good because they don't like what they spend their money on. I applaud them for it and I like Kagi.

No, internet search really isn't optional. Try it for a month. Good luck!

I didn't say internet search was optional. I said Kagi was optional.

… implication of my comment was: “Which search engine may I use that doesn't indirectly cause harm?”

You're asking a question they aren't. They take issue with the specific spending of money on Yandex. So the question is "which search engine isn't spending money on Yandex"

No, the initial comment did also reference China, which Google and Microsoft are also in bed with... albeit to a much less degree then Apple.

Hence he's on point, as ddg ultimately uses bing under the hood, pretty much all search engines would be out.

A plausible argument could be that you're only using it, not actively giving them money (at least for Google/MS). It'd still call that hypocrisy though, if someone made such an argument.

Conversely, Vlad’s strong sense of engaging in ethical business and utmost respect for and understanding of what it means to remain neutral is precisely why I use Kagi, and why I believe Kagi will beat Google in the long run—why I invested in Kagi.

> why I invested in Kagi

Do you mean in the sense of investing in your tools, or do you mean that you're one of Kagi's investors?

Both.

> ethical business

There appears to be a conflict between ethics. Some won’t let a cent of their money go to Russia. Some will as they value their search engine and freedom of information. You and Kagi have picked one over the other.

It’s also their policy in response to “biasing” search results for suicide by including a link to crisis lines

https://kagifeedback.org/d/865-suicide-results-should-probab...

Based response, I support that view.

Evaluating other responses, people complain over Yandex, but asking for the very same experience. Only different in the illusion filtering happens to their wishes.

Dang, this is a refreshing take. Going to take a look at Kagi.

Your steadfastness against the politics of the "Modern Lens" astounds me. You are a refreshing drink of cold water on a hot Mojave summer day.

Would you ever consider switching out Yandex for something like the Brave Search API or Bing (if they aren't already part of the mix)?

While I do understand your position, it's important to understand including Yandex in your index doesn't mean that politics aren't influencing your results; it's not an apolitical position.

By that definition precisely noting is apolitical. And that’s really the point, isn‘t it? Kagi values search quality over virtue signaling in line with whichever way the wind is blowing.

Also, do Kagi’s Russian users deserve to be punished because of their leader’s actions? Is that virtuous?

> By that definition precisely noting is apolitical.

I'm with you

> Kagi values search quality over virtue signaling in line with whichever way the wind is blowing.

Wait, when did I suggest that they adopt values based on "whichever way the wind is blowing"? I'm just asking them to not support the economy of a country whose invaded another free and democratic country for the purpose of expansion, and has engaged in war crimes to do so. People are upset about this, not because it is trendy, but because they think it is wrong.

You’re asking.

There isn’t a moral truth here. It’s just politics. Prove to me that Kagi’s support of Yandex has uniquely enabled a Russian war crime and maybe we could start having a real discussion about whether Kagi is morally culpable. Prove that Kagi is committing more harm than my other options. Prove that Kagi is committing more harm than the good that quality search results provides the world, provides people who are fighting and speaking against the war.

Otherwise yes this level of guilt by hand waving association based on making you feel good in the moment is exactly the definition of virtue signaling.

Brave is part of the mix, and that's also the reason I don't use Kagi myself.

Thank you for creating Kagi, sorry that you're dealing with misguided folks and thanks for the in-depth explanation.

If you can't judge that funding war criminals is a wrong action, you should reconsider your ability to do so morally

Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised, startup founders aren't exactly known for putting anything else above money and their ideas, particularly actual human well-being.

Consider that you, too, will have to live in the world that you help create, including the consequences of "a mere 2%"

Is Yandex directly complicit in war crimes?

I can't vouch for the source, but this provides a factual chronology of Yandex's (forced) integration into Russian state propaganda:

https://www.zois-berlin.de/en/publications/zois-spotlight/th...

Okay, propaganda, sure. Propaganda is a different argument - it compromises the quality of search - and I will happily agree with you. I want to emphasize, that the claim was: using Yandex through Kagi is supporting war criminals. Which war criminals? Which war crimes is Yandex complicit in? I plainly do not accept that propaganda === war crimes.

>I plainly do not accept that propaganda === war crimes

I'd say propaganda is often necessary, and usually successful, at allowing governments to execute war crimes. I think most modern war crimes are lied out of existence by propaganda outlets like Yandex (or any number of US news outlets at other points in recent history).

Following that reasoning, is Gazprom invading a country? No? Then I guess we should buy their gas. Why not send the latest and greatest ASML lithography machine to Mikron? It's not like they're actually launching the missile using the processor they manufacture.

And so on. You can see the problem with this...

It would be interesting to know people’s views on sanctions against Russia, as these are a key tool against Russia and the logic is much as you have described here. My guess is that HN users don’t support sanctions.

They are accused of sending Ukrainian users data to the Russian state.

Also, ‘In August 2024, the company was accused of collaborating with the Federal Security Service (FSB) to direct users to fake websites for the Freedom of Russia Legion and the Russian Volunteer Corps, groups composed of Russian supporters of Ukraine. The websites collected data from Russians who may be interested in joining the organisations and supporting Ukraine.’

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yandex

> If you can't judge that funding war criminals is a wrong action

Yandex does not equal Russia though.

The United States gov't has participated in what many consider illegal acts of aggression (i.e., war crimes) and do so using tools like PowerPoint. Is it moral to accept Microsoft as a client?

I'm not saying I know the right answer here, but the purity test you're proposing seems quite stringent.

You'll be shocked to learn that some people avoid US products for exactly the reasons you've mentioned. Right now some avoid Israeli stuff for similar reasons. And so it shouldn't be a shock to learn that some people don't want their money to end up in pockets of Russians and their state (via taxes).

So by your logic everyone who participates in capitalism (including yourself) is immoral.

Well, the US and a lot of the US companies fund the Palestinian genocide, and you're OK with that, so people support the genocides they like. So don't be a hypocrite.

In my estimation, Facebook/Meta and Google/Alphabet both inflict more damage on the world than Kagi. I trust that you judge them equally harshly and do not use them?

Would it not be possible for the user to disallow certain sources for searching, so as to not pay them for the API call?

I think is a more comfortable position to take.

funny enough I asked what this controversy was about to GPT 4.1 and it said Kagi now allows people to disable the Yandex source from their account settings. That's not true, unfortunately.

This is the only issue preventing me from buying a subscription. Kagi looks great but this is a major stroke against it for most Europeans.

Choosing to ignore the provenance of your suppliers is absolutely a political decision even if you wish it wasn't.

The "Google Alert" comment feels unnecessarily dismissive of a legitimate user concern.

The core issue for many, myself included, is not about asking a search engine to make "geopolitical judgments" in its search rankings. Rather, it's a question of corporate ethics in selecting business partners. The decision of which companies to partner with and fund is inherently separate from the algorithm that ranks search results.

Thanks for responding here. The issue generates strong responses on both sides.

Is there any chance of adding an ‘exclude Yandex’ option to user accounts? No money to Yandex and no improved search results.

I doubt my chances but miss my favourite search engine.

> you bring this up consistently in Kagi discussions

I do — I disagree strongly with your choices, which is why I cancelled my subscription and why I bring this up. It's doubly sad, because I liked your service.

I've subscribed to Kagi since 2023, and this response really gives me pause. Any support for totalitarian regimes like Russia or North Korea definitely forces me to reconsider being a customer.

> The moment politics influences search results is the moment we stop being a search engine.

Everything is politics, whether you acknowledge it or not. And right now you are taking a political stance.

> Everything is politics, whether you acknowledge it or not. And right now you are taking a political stance.

No, not everything is politics.

Kagi is a well-made tool, and part of the reason why it works so well is exactly because it tries not to be political. Thanks to the founder's reply, we know it ranks its sources based on utility to its users. Part of being a search engine is allowing the users to be exposed to all the information available on a given topic. The user decides how to use the tool.

I am (as many europeans) against the war that Russia started against Ukraine, but that shouldn't prevent me from looking into what Russia is saying about it should I desire to do so, and having the Yandex integration means that I, the user, am in control whether I want to click on the Yandex result or not, but at least I'm aware it exists. If the platform would decide to shut out Yandex, it wouldn't make the problem disappear, it would just remove your awareness and knowledge of it.

One of the criticisms of Yandex is that it sanitises its results to align with Kremlin wishes. If accurate, how does that help you?

For what it’s worth, I went to Yandex and tried searching Bucha, Navalny and a few other topics and the results seemed inline with Google, so I’m wondering about the accuracy of that claim (or is it a geographic thing?).

I don't know if you should drop Yandex or if the alternatives are better or not, but I feel that you're missing the point here.

You're looking at this purely from a technical point of view. That makes sense when trying to make the best search engine, I guess, but humans are not machines. You talk about geopolitics and search quality, when the guy you replied to is thinking about indirectly funding a machine that is bringing war to a country and killing people (I have friends that have been affected by it).

Your profile says you're "humanizing the web". To do that, we can't ignore what humans are and how we work.

I understand your perspective and don't take these concerns lightly - I was a refugee of two wars myself, so I'm deeply aware of human suffering and its impact. Our mission to humanize the web means ensuring universal access to human knowledge, regardless of politics, delivered with clarity and protected with integrity - for everyone, regardless of their location or circumstances. A search engine that filters sources by political approval becomes something else entirely - it becomes a biased information provider that denies the very universal access we're fighting for. The most humane thing we can do is build tools that serve humans first by providing the best possible search results to everyone - before this conflict, after this conflict, and during all other 100+ armed conflicts taking place in the world today.

An upstream search index is not exactly a source and boy is that one politically biased. Given Russia's efforts towards destruction of civic society everywhere and replacing it with post-truth one, you very much risk compromising integrity by touching their products.

That's a completely valid position to have.

The thing to keep in mind is that for some people, and this includes some of your customers, there are things that are more important than your mission. Right now, some people avoid anything that is related to Israel. When the US invaded Iraq, some avoided US companies. I won't touch anything related to Musk after the two sieg heils and other things. The guy that complained clearly has an issue with what Russia is doing in Ukraine and doesn't want their money to end up in Russia.

It's a free market. You should do what you think it's right and then people will do the same with your product. Some will care more about search quality and pay, while others will care about the companies you decide to work with and use something else.

Would it be possible for users to opt out of Yandex, thus removing any Yandex results from their searches? We can do this with specific websites, why not yandex?

A leader who on principle legitimizes and pays companies that are literal tools of oppression will inevitably burn his customers. And isn't it funny how as a paying customer one still has as much say in this as with Google?

this is a terrible response.

Where are your customers? Predominantly the West, likely the US? This is not a question of "geopolitical judgement" but rather of funding a regime that illegally invaded another country, one that is responsible for a lot of cyber crime, one that oppresses its own people and one that directly uses misinformation to sow chaos in other countries.

Apply this same argument to North Korea or Iran. Assuming that either contributed meaningfully to the quality of your search results, would you be comfortable sending money to companies based in Iran or North Korea?

You can hide behind your technocratic arguments for a while. Look to Google and Facebook to see where that ends.

It’s ironic the way you put it - the US has also invaded many countries, is responsible for a lot of cyber crime, and uses misinformation to sow chaos in other countries [1]. Should we all stop “funding“ the US? Somehow Ukranian lives are precious, but Iraqi and Bangladeshi lives are not?

I have no horse in this race - I’m neither American nor Russian, nor do I particularly love either country. But I am tired of US hypocrisy. I don’t understand how you all don’t see it - you’re all holed up in your cocoons and have no idea what’s actually going on in the world.

[1]: https://www.firstpost.com/opinion/bangladesh-coup-seems-stra...

let's not pretend that US democracy, flaws included, is in any way comparable to Russia.

Please, you know this is a bad faith argument, so let's cut the false equivalence.

I dislike the US as much as anyone, but I appreciate that the US is much better than Russia.

How many countries have Russia invaded in the last 50 years? And the same for the US?

The US invaded more and killed more innocent civilians, so pretending it's any better than Russia is hypocrisy at best.

I don't think Russia has many neighbouring countries it can still invade, because it literally already did all of them (except Norway?). And with their size, they have a lot of neighbours. It's very comfortable to restrict your argument to the last 50 years, but the true story of Russia is completely different.

Even the last 50 results in a silly long list.

Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact — Moscow divided Poland with Germany (1939), invaded Finland (1939), occupied Baltic States (1940) — for two years of WW2 Moscow was Germany ally. After WW2 Moscow occupied half of Europe for 45 years, countries become free less than 50 years ago. Moscow made North Korea and China regimes, still supports dictatorship across the world, occupies and annexes neighbors.

Wars involving Russia in the last 50 years must be around 20, and don’t forget the occupation of half of Europe.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russi...

What makes you so certain the US is less bad than Russia?

Facts. Do you have no moral ground on WW2 Germany either?

Wars are bad and the person who wins is right. That’s how it has been for all of history. There are no just wars. Just, wars.

I’m deeply skeptical of the US. But how are the US and Russia behaving the same way?

Can you give an equivalent US atrocity to what’s happening in Ukraine right now?

I think you might be experiencing a “living through it” bias.

Some people do avoid US companies for the reasons you've mentioned.

People tend to care more about what they are familiar with. Someone in Zimbabwe probably cares more about the war in Sudan and avoids dealing with the countries involved than with the Russian invasion of Ukraine and use Russian products. Same with someone in Iran, they probably care more about Syria and Palestine, and avoid Israeli products while using Yandex.

Maybe it's hypocrisy, but humans don't have the capacity to support every victim of every war.

it is this plus the ability to affect the world.

I have no dog in the US / Russia debate but i recognise that both have tremendous ability to affect the world. Same with China and i avoid chinese products where I can.

That said, i'm much less concerned about North Korea, compared to Russia. The latter has sophisticated weapons and military tactics. North Korea may be an evil state but its small population and economy mean that their ability to sow chaos is limited.

Exact same argument with Sudan, the Houthis, etc. Iran is in the middle of this pack but Russia is far and away the most significant danger.

So why bias the US over Russia on the morality scale?

But someone in Zimbabwe would care if their country commits a genocide. But most Americans don't when their country does it.

We don't even have to leave the African continent do understand that people being okay with and performing genocides, waging war, etc, isn't an exclusive American trait.

Disappointing response. Guess I'll continue to avoid Kagi.

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