Comment by pyman | Hacker News Reader

Comment by pyman | Hacker News Reader

From what I was told, Python was originally seen as a Swiss Army knife for sysadmins. It started gaining more traction when Canonical adopted it as the main language for Ubuntu 4.10 in 2004.

Then, in 2005, Guido van Rossum was hired by Google to work on Google Cloud. That opened the door for wider adoption in academia, since Python had strong math libraries and integrated well with tools researchers were already using, like Hadoop, right around the time big data and ML were starting to take off.

Also, between 2005 and 2006, two important things happened: Ruby on Rails came out and inspired Django, which was starting to gain popularity, and web developers were getting tired of Perl's messy syntax. That's how Python quickly became a solid choice not just for server-side scripts, but for building proper web apps. In the meantime, another language that could be embedded directly into HTML was storming the web: PHP. Its syntax was similar to JavaScript, it was easy to pick up, lowered the barrier to entry for software development, worked straight out of the box, and didn't require thousands of print statements to get things done.

The 3 Ps made history. According to programmers from 20 years ago, they were like religions. Each had its own philosophy and a loyal group of followers crusading online, getting into heated debates, all trying to win over more adopters. The new generation of devs is more pragmatic. These days it's less about language wars and more about picking the right tool for the job.

> According to programmers from 20 years ago, they were like religions. Each had its own philosophy and a loyal group of followers crusading online, getting into heated debates, all trying to win over more adopters.

It's very weird reading something you lived through described in these terms, as though it were being described by an anthropologist.

Can't help but wonder what the future will have to say about today.

"In 2025, programmers used 'frameworks' to hang 'apps' from some kind of 'web'. They believed these frameworks gave them magic powers. Many even fought in 'flame wars' on this topic, which experts believe involved the use of fire to destroy webs woven by competing programmers."

The key factor imo was Travis Oliphant merging the competing numeric and numarray libraries into numpy in 2005. That quickly became the foundation of Python as the key environment for open source numeric processing.

It brought across a ton of users from R and Matlab.

Pandas, Matplotlib and ScikitLearn then consolidated Python's place as the platform of choice for both academic and commercial ML.

Python's success is entirely due to entry-level programming courses. They all switched to Python, because you have to explain less. I don't think I heard about web servers in Python before 2012. I suppose a 2005 computer wouldn't be able to serve a Python backend smoothly.

PHP's popularity isn't really from 2005-2006. It was popular at the end of the 90s, and it looks like JS as much as it looks like a potato.

With python you can just go: 'print "hello, world!"' and that's a full-ass program

You run it by saying `python hello.py`.

Compare that to the amount of crap you need(ed) with 2005 Java just to have something running.

The shittiness of ActivePython and generally getting python to run on Windows were a bit of a hurdle, but still it was easier than the competition

I mean, it isn't like you couldn't get similarly terse scripts in other languages. Common LISP, as an easy example people love to beat up on.

You could, but then they deprecated the paranthesis less form in 3.x :)

Sure, but you could've done the same thing with perl in the 80's and 90's.

You could also accidentally summon an Ancient One while trying to write a regex :D

Perl is a fine language, but it's like using a wood chipper with no safeties. It takes extreme care and know-how to use it without splattering ASCII everywhere and making an unmaintainable write-only mess.

For every beautiful and maintainable perl program (mostly irssi scripts) I've seen 99 abominations that are quicker to rewrite completely than decode wtf they are doing.

True, true. I remember writing full blown applications as perl CGI scripts, back in the day. I should see if I can dig up some of that stuff.

> Python's success is entirely due to entry-level programming courses.

Yeah, after 2008. And by 2014, it had overtaken Java in many CS programs. But I was referring to the events that led to that.

> I suppose a 2005 computer wouldn't be able to serve a Python backend smoothly.

Python had web servers from 2000, including Jim Fulton's Zope (really a full framework for a content management system) and in 2002 Remi Delon's CherryPy.

Both were useful for their day, well supported by web hosting companies, and certainly very lightweight compared to commercial Java systems that typically needed beefy Sun Solaris servers.

I'd forgotten about CherryPy until Turbogears was mentioned the other day in the Django birthday thread.

But yeah Python was on an upswing for webdev and sysadmin (early DevOps?) tooling, but took quite a hit with Ruby eg Rails, Puppet, Vagrant and Chef etc.

But Python hung on and had a comeback due to data science tooling, and Ruby losing it's hype to node for webdev and golang for the devops stuff.

In my experience AWS also contributes a lot to this. Boto3 is a great library for interacting with AWS services

> Python's success is entirely due to entry-level programming courses. They all switched to Python, because you have to explain less.

Nonsense.

> I don't think I heard about web servers in Python before 2012.

More nonsense.

> I suppose a 2005 computer wouldn't be able to serve a Python backend smoothly.

Extreme nonsense.

https://medium.com/signal-v-noise/ruby-has-been-fast-enough-...

And this is when Python was edging Ruby performance wise.

This is entirely backward. They all started switching when python was already immensely popular after the popularity boosts given by sysadmin, django and numerical/datascience users.

This is what I have seen as well. When Python became ubiquitous in the industry, they started teaching it in the colleges.

I come from a core science background. I studied Physics. And it was like this in my institute: FORTRAN -> A lot of C, small amount of FORTRAN -> C -> Python. I was taught C, but from the exact next year, it was switched to the Python ecosystem.

It was done much later when Python became the standard in research universities, the language of recent research papers, etc.

A generation of Scienctists learned C/FORTRAN/MATLAB in college/grad school as it was taught, but they switched to Python early/mid career. Teaching Python in undergrad followed.

I also taught a mid-career Economics professor Python. She used SPSS before for her papers. Humanities professors doing data crunching are now switching to Python, too. There is a clear trend.

I argue that Python's success was almost entirely due to it not adopting any best practices on dependency management and being installed by default on systems.

Being default installed was almost certainly the larger factor. As evidenced by how much pain it caused people when they started using dependencies that were not stable. They had to add specific support for it to not let you pip install things to the system install.

1. Python was pretty popular well before entry-level programming courses adopted it. I think they adopted Python because it was a good general purpose scripting language, multiplatform, easy to install and get going, that taught programming concepts in a more approachable way for beginners.

2. Python on web servers was a thing long before 2012. You had Zope in 1998 or so, and it was pretty popular for a while, and hugely influential to subsequent web frameworks. Django came out in about 2005. TurboGears, Pylons in about 2005 or so. Flask in 2010... and these are just the more popular frameworks.

3. I think the author meant that PHP was also vaguely C-like in syntax, like JS. Keyword: vaguely. You had a common way of declaring stuff with curly braces and semi-colons.

I always loved the huge standard library that PHP offered, that and the comment section per function on the php docs pages

> Python's success is entirely due to entry-level programming courses.

No, entry-level courses were in a mix of Scheme, C, and other languages until Java’s industrial ubiquity ended up in it becoming a popular choice, but not completely displacing the others. Then as Python (along with the broader class of dynamic OO scripting languages) became quite popular, Python got added to the mix, but, unlike Java, it fairly quickly displaced not only Java but a lot of what had been around longer in introductory courses.

Python’s industrial success drove its initial use in introductory courses, but doesn't fully explain it, as it doing what Java never did indicates.

I think the people teaching introductory courses find it less of a compromise to industrial popularity than they did with Java.

Python’s success is multifaceted, some of it is right-place right-time, a lot of it is the ecosystem it built because of that, but a lot of it is, I think, that it turns out to be a language that has been designed (both initially and in how it is been managed over time) to be a very good language for real people solving real problems, despite not adhering to any of what various typing and performance and paradigm purists like to posit as the essential features of a good language.

Peak PHP was Facebook around 2008!

> I don't think I heard about web servers in Python before 2012

Excuse me but... what ? Django is 20 years old.

> They all switched to Python, because you have to explain less

I think this could be generalized to ergonomics. Java 1.6 is an absolute nightmare for a newb compared to Python. No top-level statements, explicit typing, boxing, verbose declaration syntax, long import statements, curly braces everywhere... and, most importantly, no out-of-the-box REPL. Java has since made strides and borrowed from Kotlin and Lombok but my understanding is that it was too little too late.

Depending upon preference and application one might consider ~half of these things anti-features at the expense of stability but it speaks volumes to why people join and stay in a software ecosystem. If I had to work on a Python project again I'd use mise with uv and viciously lint the codebase down to a reasonable fully-typed subset of the language devoid of custom decorator magic and dunder abuse.

> but my understanding is that it was too little too late.

Too little too late to be the #1 language of choice for serious server-side software that it is today?

The weird thing about Java is that people naturally compare its popularity today to its dominance in the early '00s, which was an aberration. The ecosystem has long since returned to its fragmented self, and while Java is not nearly as dominant as it was during that very short period, no other language is, either.

> Too little too late to be the #1 language of choice for serious server-side software that it is today?

I was replying to

> Python's success is entirely due to entry-level programming courses. They all switched to Python,

not to mention that there are an awful lot of qualifiers in your statement. There are certainly plenty of Java jobs to be had but all the usual suspects like PYPL, TIOBE, SO (disregarding the old adage about damn lies and statistics) put Python squarely above Java in terms of popularity.

This is all to say that if I got conked on the head and lost all of my programming knowledge and had to make a living I'd restart with Python. This isn't a value judgment - the JVM and Python ecosystem are on roughly equal footing in my mind. It's just how things are.

Python may be somewhat more popular [1] in terms of number of people using it (partly because a lot of Python programming isn't about shipping software and many Python users aren't professional programmers), but JS, Python, and Java, the three most popular programming languages today, are each dominant in specific domains, and none of them has a huge market share in the areas where the others dominate. There isn't a lot (relatively) of client GUI software written in Python or Java, there isn't a lot (relatively) of data analysis in Java or JS, and there isn't a lot (relatively) of serious servers in Python or JS.

[1]: https://www.devjobsscanner.com/blog/top-8-most-demanded-prog...

> The 3 Ps made history. According to programmers from 20 years ago, they were like religions. Each had its own philosophy and a loyal group of followers crusading online, getting into heated debates, all trying to win over more adopters. The new generation of devs is more pragmatic. These days it's less about language wars and more about picking the right tool for the job.

I feel like the religious wars aspects of this is completely overblown. The conversations around languages really hasn't changed all that much in the last 20 years. Look at the way you see things happening in HN, heck even in the comment thread right here. It's the exact same kinds of discussions as happened back 20 years ago, with exactly the same kind of pragmatism.

I think the gulf comes about from the fact that the primary sources are conversations occurring between people that are largely anonymous behind an online handle, interacting with people that aren't face to face. There's always been an element of exaggeration in the interactions. What might be a "Umm, no" with a maybe a shake of the head, becomes "Your mother was a hamster and your father smells of elderberries". Almost every party involved comes to recognise the particular cultural quirks (which varied from forum to forum) and how to translate what was said, to what was actually meant.

>From what I was told, Python was originally seen as a Swiss Army knife for sysadmins.

Yea, I was a sysadmin around 2000 (before that too) and I knew it as such.

>between 2005 and 2006, two important things happened:

Somewhat - I used it in 2001 for Plone which is based on Zope, which was somewhat popular around that time. Writing all the web stuff with Python made sense, since Plone provided a CMS and could include a wiki. Adding on some sql calls to it in python just made sense. The competition was between PHP and Python, though there were some other less popular choices. Ruby on Rails definitely was getting a lot more popular around those times. PHP didn't start getting popular around 2005, if anything, people started using Python more, and started criticizing the crappy code that was circulating in the PHP community.

In any case, it was a fun time, but what's the point of looking back like that?

This aligns with what I remember and Guido going to Google explains things. Mid 2000's was all about PHP (Cake/Symphony/CodeIgniter/etc) vs Ruby (Rails) in the open source world. I remember hearing about Python only in sysadmin work and Plone. Then, suddenly were suddenly a lot of articles from Google about just about everything, all in Python.

I remember saying to a coworker, "Google is single-handedly keeping Python alive."

Then bam. It was everywhere. Mid 2010's, I took a cybersec job and they told me to learn Python in the two weeks between accepting and starting. "Python is all over cybersec," I was told. It was then I realized Python took over academia, which positioned it perfectly for ML. It's features made it easy to start, but it also benefited from right place, right time.

Guido's passion and leadership were the driving force behind Python. A lot of smart people aligned with his vision.

> These days it's less about language wars and more about picking the right tool for the job

You should talk to the Java advocates in my company :) The language wars are still around, it's just Java vs the rest now.

One of my colleagues, a retired programmer who spent 20 years at Microsoft, told my students that it used to be Java vs Visual Basic, until Microsoft brought in the big guns, like Anders Hejlsberg. That's when it turned into Java vs .NET, and things really started to heat up :)

Java unequivocally won the war, though.

C# is the Java of Lua (thanks to Unity) which will never not be weird.

Having used both, I still can't understand why.

M$ was too late to open source it and too late to embrace Linux. On desktop side .NET was only for windows back then and xamarin immature. On server side in java land you had framework war so you had many choices and libraries to choose from - companies didn't want to fully embrace M$ ecosystem (windows sql server, windows deployment etc). Then Android came and adopted Java and M$ lost mobile ecosystem war.

I can see similar way why Swift eventually can loose market share - too late to open source and too late to embrace cross-platform.

I'd say the switch was learning that Google Search was written in Python (remember when error pages URL were in .py ?), and Youtube rewritten in Python. After that, reddit and dropbox followed (and later Instagram).

Apple also added Python in, I think, Mac OS X Jaguar, so it blipped on the radar.

When you have big players using it, the community automatically grows.

Django was the continuity of that and definitely contributed to the growing popularity of Python, but I think the hype started way before (and in fact we had to suffer Zope/Plone/Twisted for it :)).

Another decisive date was circa 2010 when the Belgian book "learn programming with python" came out. Granted, Django was already 5 years old at the time, but it brought many beginners who knew nothing about programming at the time.

Python was everywhere in science by earlier than that (Numeric and numarray, Numpy’s predecessors, are from the late 90s/early 2000s).

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