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Comment by Imme_Play_5550 | Hacker News Reader

There is definitely such a thing as overtraining. I got my free testosterone down to 15 (reference range=35-155 pg/mL) and my total testosterone down to 96 (ref=250-1100 ng/dL). From histograms from various studies, I hit the 1-percentile of low testosterone as a 35yo male. That's... uh... not good.

This was due to a number of factors: excessive running (the equivalent of ~50-70mi/week), calorie restriction, and possibly carbohydrate restriction. Thankfully symptoms of low T (namely morning erections) resolved ~1month after ameliorating those 3 factors. (For anyone interested, look up "Relative Energy Deficiency in Sport".)

Mileage isn't my goal. Health is.

OP states "I've... invested into my own health", but I'm not convinced.

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While I don't disagree that "team no days off" is probably not the ideal way to promote long-term health, I'd assert that most of the adult population in first-world countries are far more at risk from a lack of sufficient physical activity than from overtraining. Not dismissing your own experience (it sounds pretty bad) and I assume from context that you worked yourself into that hole, but we need to be encouraging people to be doing more physical activity rather than less.

I think the nuance gets lost in a lot of the "no days off" messaging

I mean you're right, but if you're fat running is pretty rough on the knees.

Source: was fat, ran a lot, lost weight, got runner's knee, am fat again.

Maybe you already looked into barefoot running. I found it took the impact off my knees.

Oh yeah, haha

I've never done the like barefoot-barefoot thing but switched to minimalist zero-drop shoes.

It was in fact a game-changer for me, all of a sudden in my 30s I could run 10k without IT band pain (even when fairly athletic playing American football in my youth). But when I pushed more into the 10-mile range I got runner's knee - diagnosed w/o MRI or anything as patellar tendinitis although I'm sort of worried it was actually my meniscus.

I kept wanting to get back to it and kept re-aggravating. So I have now mostly given it up for like a year. Bad for my health of course. But as I move forward forced days off (ideally cross-training w/ swimming, kayaking, hitting a heavy bag, etc) just have to be part of the plan.

Yeah, zero-drop shoes is what I mean by "barefoot" running. Landing on the balls of your feet, not your heel.

Maybe 10 miles is too much regardless though.

Have you tried non-running (indoor) cardio as a regular replacement? Jumping jacks, squats, jump squats, mountain climbers, even jogging in place. I do cardio everyday but running is only every 4th day. Of course, if you have access to equipment there’s always stationary bike and other machines like an elliptical.

Was fat, walked a lot, lost weight, started running, still -25 kg.

But I'm not that skinny since "long time". Running 2-3x a week.

100% relate (I was never overweight but gave myself knee tendonitis through overdoing distance running). It's my own (unscientific) opinion that cycling or rowing are superior options for untrained people to get more conditioning work in, albeit they do have a higher barrier to entry due to the equipment.

> I'd assert that most of the adult population in first-world countries are far more at risk from a lack of sufficient physical activity than from overtraining.

You're using the wrong reference group here. Would you still assert that most people when narrowed down to those who are running every day are more at risk from a lack of sufficient physical activity than from overtraining? Because that's the group we are discussing – those either doing it or considering doing it.

Most of the adult population in first-world countries are not considering running every day.

As a former runner (competitive trackin/xcountry) and a current recreational runner - I cannot imagine never taking a day off is actually safe for your knees and joints. At least for me, I simply cannot run every single day without developing some sort of tendinitis or other mild pain/ache.

Yeah. I'm training for my first official marathon right now and my rest days are sacred. I imagine if it's low volume running it's probably easier, but still, the pain adds up.

Yep, I don't disagree with your point here at all. I'm a former distance runner who gave himself knee tendonitis by overdoing it, so I definitely accept the risk of overtraining. I guess that I was trying to make the point that almost nobody is at risk of that.

I'd assert that overtraining is relative to what we've been doing. So people who've not been doing much can still be at risk of overtraining.

The problem is that the population which is not doing physical activity is the population uniquely at risk for overtraining. You can't put a couch potato out and have them run, run, run without them ending up with shin splints, stress fractures, and all the other issues that come from pushing too hard, too fast.

Saying we need to do more physical activity is not carte blanche to run yourself into the ground. No decent running coach would recommend running every day anyway. 3-4 times a week, and then let your body rest and recover. Training does not make you healthy or stronger. Recovering from the training makes you healthy and stronger.

But the daily mile is not what will push you into overtraining. It’s just 7 miles a week. Training hard in calorie restriction is IMO a horrible idea though. You would need to make sure to burn as little carbs as possible and not do any workouts. Basically dedicating a block to losing weight instead of improving your running. Might still get faster, weight is a factor in running

But exercise along with calorie restriction will keep you from losing muscle mass and so your weight loss will be more from fat. I agree though, no need to train hard during calorie restriction.

Totally off-topic, but when did people start abbreviating testosterone to T? I noticed it a few years ago when TV commercials started airing promoting various snake oils to fix low T. But now I see it everywhere. Is it another idea that escaped body building forums?

It started on forums, bled into social media, and now it’s used by advertisers trying to capture the people who recognize it from forums and social media.

Interestingly, the businesses targeting this segment have pivoted into offering actual testosterone prescriptions, pill-mill style. They’ve discovered that if they can find a willing doctor then there are no consequences for writing mass prescriptions for testosterone as long as they can create a minimal paper trail documenting some symptoms. So people see an ad on social media or hear one on the radio, make an appointment, and the doctor quickly diagnoses them with “low T” based on vague symptoms like “not performing as well as I’d like in the gym”, and they get a prescription.

The business model is to charge a monthly fee such as $200/month. Once people start taking testosterone their body shuts off its natural production, meaning they feel devastated if they ever stop taking it. So the customer is hooked. Some people can discontinue and eventually recover, but most people who take it for years will have testicular atrophy such that they may never be able to live without testosterone injections again for the rest of their lives. This inconvenient fact is rarely communicated up front, of course.

I think it's a shame avoidance and marketing effort. It's not flattering for a man to admit he thinks he has low testosterone. Easier to talk about.

There is some fake shit no doubt, but you can have real problems that lower it. Kills dudes motivation, libido, etc and that kinda spirals towards depression sometimes. But it's not meant for long term use or meant to be given out as willingly as it is.

I've also seen how easily well-meaning habits (running, dieting, etc.) can tip into something detrimental, especially when the metrics become the goal. There's a fine line between dedication and depletion.

But how would you loose weight without calorie restriction?

Maybe this amount of running was excessive, but how did you even run such distances with T so low? (Ie how did you recover?)

I'm no expert on this, but I also read about this as I also tried calorie restriction.

You still have to keep your macros (and micros) in balance while on calorie deficit, which is even harder. Your body needs various things, you just need to optimize your food. Also, I think the main contributor for OPs issues was the fat deficit, which is very easy to fall into while you think you eat healthy a lean food. Fat is important for your hormone production.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26843151/

https://shilpidietclinic.com/low-fat-diet-and-hormonal-imbal...

In my experience(currently about 15kg into a 40kg weight-loss program), eating enough fat can also be very helpful for losing weight. It seems counter-intuitive, but it works for me. Fat contributes a great deal to satiety. My diet setup has been to have breakfast and dinner only, no lunch on most days. This way I can make both meals quite calorific, filling and plenty tasty. Crucial for maintaining adherence to the setup, which is by far the hardest part of weight loss.

When you have to go 7 to 8 hours without eating before dinner you want plenty of slow-burning calories. Long chain fats, protein, slow carbs, with plenty of fiber.

My typical breakfast ends up being one slice of bread with liver pate and cheese, another with peanut butter and either nutella(if I'm doing morning cardio or some other exercise mid-day. Lots of sugar in nutella, which gets used up immediately by the exercise anyway) or various kinds of jam with no added sugar(usually pear and apple, since they're not so tart and are pretty sweet without added sugar), and a protein pudding cup(20g protein). The bread needs to be whole-grain, of course. Ideally 100% whole grain.

This ends up being about 700 calories, which is a pretty substantial breakfast. And most importantly, it includes a lot of protein(from liver, peanut butter, cheese, the bread and the pudding), a good mix of saturated fats with plenty of SCFA and MCT from the cheese and liver, mono- and polyunsaturated fat from the peanut butter, and tons of soluble and insoluble fiber from the bread and peanut butter.

This tends to keep me full until dinner time, at which point I can typically eat up to 1300 kcal depending on how active I've been.

On extremely active days, I might either add another slice of bread to breakfast, or have a protein snack and some fruit after exercise, as well as electrolyte drink with sugar in it during(important both for energy and fluid uptake).

Anyway, I'm rarely hungry except for just before eating, which is the idea. I think this would be much harder on a low-fat diet.

If someone is running everyday like this, do they actually even need to lose weight? Aren't they already very fit?

Also, testosterone also gets impacted by fatigue. Running is more fatiguing than lets say stationary biking or elliptical. So maybe try other forms of cardio to burn calories too instead of only running?

You can eat like shit and do a lot of exercise and be overweight.

I’m 90 kg at 180 cm. I ride my bike 450 km per week. A few weeks ago I did a 340 km, 3000 m elevation ride at 25.6 km/h and yesterday I did a 220 km ride at 27 km/h. Last week I burned 13,468 calories from cycling (this should be fairly accurate as I have a power meter).

I would say I’m quite fit, I can obviously ride my bike further and faster than the vast majority of people but I am definitely overweight and look fat.

While I didn't run this much, I used to run 50 km / 30 miles a week. My "cardio" was good, but I didn't lose weight because all the running made me 1. extremely hungry 2. too tired to cook a proper meal, 3. have a convenient excuse to eat bad...

"How could I not eat a second donut, I just ran 15k!"

I was not "feeling fit", though, I believe I had low T, and I stayed relatively fat, which is not great for your organs, liver values, heart, etc.

So even if you are able to run 50K a week, you may still be somewhat unhealthy due to poor diet and other factors, and some of them can be improved by losing weight...

For #2, meal prep is a valid strategy; double up on ingredients when you do cook, put the leftovers in the freezer for later.

I was too lazy to cook a proper meal for a good while, but I would make something in weekends. Since all portion sizes in shops are catered for 2-3 people minimum, I'd always have 1-2 portions left over. I had convenient 500ml freezer/microwave containers which was also ideal for portion control. Lost 8 kilos in 8 months without actively dieting during that period.

Mind you it was also a stressful period, with a new job and stuff.

I’m no expert, but you should be roughly as tired burning 200 kcal running vs walking vs biking. The difference will be how quickly you’ll burn those calories.

It's not really the type of exercise but the intensity that determines fatigue. If you walk for an hour you will burn 200 kcal and ready to walk one more hour. If you try to burn 200 kcal sprinting, most people would become exhausted before getting close.

> If someone is running everyday like this, do they actually even need to lose weight? Aren't they already very fit?

Not necessarily. There's a reason the saying is "You can't outrun a bad diet."

Before I got my diet dialed in I was cycling every day, upwards of 10 miles a day with a couple 20 mile rides per week, and was still gaining weight because I ate like crap, and more importantly, still ate more than I was burning with all the exercise.

The average American consumes 3,864 calories per day. A moderately active male might have a maintenance of ~2,647 calories, give or take a couple hundred. Just eating 500 calories per day over what you burn will lead to about a 1lb increase in weight per week. A zone 2 run might burn somewhere between 500-600 calories per hour, so its easy to see how quickly over eating can add up and at a point it becomes basically impossible to "run it off."

There's other factors that play into it such as lean mass vs. fat, etc. but in general, you can be very active and still be overweight.

I understand what you are saying but OP is not an average American. They have been running every single day for 10 years, so chances of them already being very conscious about their diet are very high I think.

When people say calorie deficit they usually mean low calories. Not 3000 kcal intake and 3300 burned which would be a healthy approach for a runner

A small calorie deficit alone won’t lead to major problems.

The phrase “calorie restriction” is often used in the context of life extension to refer to periods of very low caloric intake, near fasting. This would cause problems with hormone levels.

wait what? you get morning erections when on low testosterone?

When googling, it seems to be the opposite. That morning erection is a sign of a healthy testosterone level.

Yeah that’s not true at all. Not sure where he got his info but it’s incorrect.

He probably meant absence of morning erections.

He meant the opposite: They were absent.

It should be noted that this isn’t a truly reliable indicator like the internet suggests some times. For many people, they still get them but it occurs while they’re sleeping rather than at time of wake up.

Yeah I've always wondered about that. I haven't gotten them regularly since I was 16 - 17. But in my late 30's, I still have an annoyingly high libido, no issues in the bedroom, and testosterone in the upper range of normal.

Internet bro science about testosterone has evolved into something resembling a horoscope: If you read a list of symptoms of “low T” on the Internet nearly everyone will think they have a problem.

There’s a parallel problem where the testosterone replacement therapy industry has diverged from its original stated purpose of replacing missing testosterone. The trend now is to prescribe excessive doses, beyond what the person ever naturally had. It’s basically a doctor-prescribed steroids when overdosed, but that’s also what a lot of people think they want.

Even crazier, some of the TRT clinics are now prescribing anabolic steroid compounds that were only FDA approved for severe muscle wasting disorders and cancer patients. The subreddits even had scripts you could follow to trigger certain clinics to prescribe the steroids for a time.

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