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Comment by cjbprime | Hacker News Reader

> There is no possible way to confuse these two actions.

This is obviously an overstatement. Any two regularly performed actions can be confused. Sometimes (when tired or distracted) I've walked into my bathroom intending to shave, but mistakenly brushed my teeth and left. My toothbrush and razor are not similar in function or placement.

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That's just your brain associating the bathroom with the act of brushing your teeth, and therefore doing it automatically upon the trigger of entering the bathroom. It bears no resemblance to the accidental activation of a completely different button.

The other poster's correction: "it’s like brushing your teeth with razor" is apt. Touching the fuel cutoff switches is not part of any procedure remotely relevant to the takeoff, so there's no trigger present that would prompt the automatic behavior.

Now I'm trying to remember if I've ever picked up my razor and accidentally begun tooth brushing motions with it. Probably!

More relevantly, you seem to me to be unduly confident about what this pilot's associative triggers might and might not be.

Good analogy. Things I do every day in front of the mirror, but I occasionally attempt to squeeze some soap on my toothbrush. Or I have to brush my teeth and I find my beard foamed up. Or I walk out of the shower after only rinsing myself with water.

I've definitely put shaving cream on my toothbrush before.

Not a bathroom one, but the number of times I've tried to pay for public transport with my work/office fob is mental. Generally happens on days where I'm feeling sharper than average but also consumed with problem solving

I agree. Has anyone here unplugged their mouse instead of pressing caps lock by mistake?

Do you unplug your mouse so frequently that it has become muscle memory?

It depends on how that person internalized and learned the behaviour. We store things differently.

If someone confused their steering wheel for the brake you'd probably be surprised - there are indeed errors that are essentially impossible for a competent person to make by mistake. No idea about the plane controls, though.

Even in modern "fly by wire" cars the steering wheel and brake pedal have an immediate effect. They are essentially directly connect to their respective control mechanisms. As far as I understand both of the plane controls on question just trigger sequences that are carried out automatically. So it's more like firing off the wrong backup script than scratching the wrong armpit.

The only two production cars on sale where the steering wheel is mechanically decoupled from the wheels are the cybertruck and a variant of the Lexus RX.

Essentially impossible is not the same as impossible. We already know that an improbably sequence of events took place because a plane crashed which is highly unusual.

Technically an overstatement but not by much. Correctly restated, its highly unlikely these actions were confusing pilots. It's as if you mistook flushing your toilet twice when instead you wanted to turn on the lights in your bathroom.

I don't agree with the "twice". A frequently performed manipulation like the fuel cutoff (usually performed after landing) collapses down to a single intention that is carried out by muscle memory, not two consciously selected actions.

Your opinion is valid but definitely doesn't align with any evidence.

What a shallow, copy-paste response.

His statement was about a certain, obviously real tendency in general, existence of which is reasonable to assume there is enough research about.

He objected not to the unlikelihood of an accidental manipulation, but to the potential flaw in your comparison (which was at best a valid opinion).

Can you elaborate on why you think I copied and pasted my response? There is no evidence of it existing anywhere other than my cerebrum:

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Your+opinion+is+valid+but...

I think you're misarticulating my argument.

Well if we are going by "unlikely" equals "didn't happen" then we can conclude that the plane didn't crash.

Even humans have fixed action patterns. Much behavior is barely under conscious control.

If I were to apply OPs assertion to your actions it’s like brushing your teeth with razor. I guess that’s what they meant.

Not really, though. They're both (retracting the gear, and cutting off fuel) just toggle switches, as far as your brain's conscious mechanisms go. Doing them both on every flight dulls the part of your brain that cares about how they feel different to perform.

(I'm not strongly arguing against the murder scenario, just against the idea that it's impossible for it to be the confusion scenario.)

Neither is a toggle switch and the gear lever is incredibly conspicuous:

https://www.aerosimsolutions.com.au/custom-products/olympus-...

This would be like opening your car door when you meant to activate the turn signal.

I meant philosophical toggle switches, not physical ones. The gear can go between down and up. The fuel can go between run and cutoff. Given enough practice, the brain takes care of the physical actions that manipulate those philosophical toggles without conscious thought about performing them.

this bathroom thing and various similar scenarios happens to me when im on weed.

Genuinely curious - could heavy marijuana use cause confusion between landing gear and fuel cutoff? Or some other drugs? (Wondering if they screen pilots for alcohol before they board an aircraft.)

They don't screen every time but there are spot checks. A pilot with heavy use will certainly get caught

The prelim report states these pilots were indeed breathalyzed before takeoff.

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