I find it hard to believe that even a plurality wants these books banned. Do we have proportions, or is it just a number of complaints?
I find it hard to believe that even a plurality wants these books banned. Do we have proportions, or is it just a number of complaints?
Happens a lot at universities and non profits. A big donor will sometimes only agree to donate if certain conditions are met, and as a result can strong arm the other party into whatever they want. The public sector is the same; At the local level it's often business owners that have enough influence over the local economy.
Are there any books that a public community library should not be willing to carry?
Most University Libraries carry those text. I'm not sure if it would be particularly useful in the context of a public library (as the goal is to serve a local community with a wide range of needs). However, if there was interest then it would likely be put into circulation.
I would speculate that there was likely a time when each of those were on shelves, but they were likely weeded out due to lack of interest.
But you see no qualitative difference between {a book written by a white supremacist, neo-Nazi organization; a fabricated text (i.e., propaganda); and a book the SPLC describes as "'widely revered by American white supremacists' and 'a sort of anti-immigration analog to The Turner Diaries', and attributed its popularity to the plot's parallels with the white genocide conspiracy theory."} and "The book Pride Colors by Robin Stevenson, which explains the meaning of the rainbow colors in the Pride flag"[1]?
What is the literary value of white supremacist drivel or a fabricated text to a community library? (I'd wager approximately none.) Versus the books being complained about (anything and everything LGBTQ+). (Definite value from helping people exploring LGBTQ+ topics for themselves, simply trying to learn about LGBTQ people, to helping non-homophobic parents raise inclusive, tolerant children who don't want to spread hate & intolerance, and which need only be checked out by those who actually desire to read them.) There is demand for books of the nature being banned here; I cannot see there being anywhere near the same demand for books filled with bile.
And again, the empirical position (and for some subsets, outright stated position) of the right is to remove any and all traces of LGBTQ media from libraries. (And more broadly, from society, as well.)
In this particular instance[1], we can see this in one of the complaints:
> “Our library should not be carrying ANY material about LGBT,” one person wrote.
and,
> “Family has 2 moms — unacceptable,” the person wrote of another book. They also complained, “This book makes LGBTQ+ look ‘harmless’ and acceptable.”
Someone else points out exactly your quip; what about equal representation?
> She continued, “You said taxation without representation. What about my representation in the library? What about what I want my children to read? What about the 4 percent [of] LGBTQ members in your community that you represent that only get 1 percent of the books? Are they not being represented fairly with their tax dollars?”
In the broader national debate, we've seen this pattern endlessly; "protect the children" is a wedge to open a fissure towards a wholesale and complete ban. E.g., see the FL Don't Say Gay Act, which started as objections that education on such topics needed to be "age appropriate" but was then subsequently expanded until is was a wholesale ban on education of numerous topics.
[1]: https://www.advocate.com/news/front-royal-samuels-library-co...
But the same library orders one copy of Heartstopper and all hell breaks loose.
Meanwhile within their church, on several occasions it was discovered that a man had sexually assaulted little boys. Did they kick him out of the church and go to the police? No, he was a sinner who could be saved by prayer. Until he did it again, and again. Some stupid parents even let him take their boy on a weekend trip years after the situation first came to light. You don't need me to tell you what happened on that trip. I think they finally did get the police involved, but that's after my family finally wised up and left the church.
Unfortunately this wasn't the only incident. There was another family that had two teenage boys. Their teenage boys? Molesting little girls on multiple occasions. Call the police? No, instead have the boys admit their guilt in front of the entire congregation, laying-on hands, prayer, etc. Until they did it again. That family finally high-taled it out of the state.
To this day I wonder why I got out unscathed, except second-hand knowing what was going on. So, yes I have met these evangelicals. Yes, I know their priorities and how they would rather turn a blind eye to sexual assault going on within their own church all the while trying to have Pride parades or whatever banned. Sure, they don't _want_ sexual assault happening, but did they do the slightest to prevent it? No. They tried to pray it away, but meanwhile were happy to expend countless man-hours protesting about obscene books to protect their children. No, I'm not making a purely-snarky comment.
If you're moved by this more in-depth explanation, I'd appreciate if you unflagged my comment.
Also, we shouldn't dilute the meaning of the term "book banners" to refer to anyone who doesn't want a particular book in a particular place (even if that place is a public library). In the US, we are spoiled to have zero actually banned books. Anyone who wants to is free to purchase any book they want, as long as it's for sale somewhere. People who don't want books that have sexual content (which a disproportionate number of sexuality-focused books do) in the kids' section might be fine with those books existing in a different section, or in a private bookstore. True "book banners" would want to enforce a ban on them existing anywhere. This is a subset — and quite possibly a small one — of the former group.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_Perfectly_Normal
I have another comment on this thread where I linked a lot of related information about this.
Thanks for the wikipedia link. The criticism section is particularly enlightening:
> In a 2023 Slate article, Aymann Ismail, who until then had considered most attempts to ban books hysterical, was taken aback by the book's explicitness.
While digging for this there does seem to be a young adult novel about a young gay man that does feature sexually explicit content (although it doesn't appear pornographic at all). The library keeps it in the "New Adults section. Which requires that anyone under age get explicit permission from their guardian to access, and they even created a new kind of library card to help moderate said access.
This feels less and less like you're interested in discussing this and more like you're grasping for some kind of "gotcha" argument. I'm probably not going to respond again unless it feels productive.
If you think that asking to clarify that is a "gotcha" question, so be it. I view the original statement as intentionally misleading, and aimed to be kind in asking for a clarification instead of just calling out your misleading statement.
Libraries were not expected to confine children to the children's section in my childhood.
I saw a few restricted sections like they described in recent years. Policy prohibited children without permission entering. None had full time guards however. Deterrence seemed to rely on what would happen if caught. Like many rules and laws.
[0]: https://slate.com/human-interest/2023/09/banned-books-list-i...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=It%27s_Perfectly_...
This dichotomy is false. Many challenges were trying to prevent children and adolescents from accessing age appropriate materials. A number of challenges asserted the books were unsuitable for any age. Or called for the library to purge or destroy them.[1][2]
> (I'll interpret downvotes without response as confirmation of the latter, and that people want minors accessing adult material.)
Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.[3]
Who did you think would be impressed by an announcement you would interpret down votes in bad faith?
[1] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fMT8K3YQVbCUFj9_67euHnQW...