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Comment by patcon | Hacker News Reader

Good god, the perpetual disdain of default HN for narrative exposition is so deep-rooted.

Y'all know humans are kinda "made of" stories, right? Stories are the unit layer that we add on top of biological structure. It's not "data"

Imho it is essentially self-loathing of the human condition to valorise raw data and detest linear narrative as much as this crowd seems to do

EDIT: Narrative is the wings, without which data cannot travel through enough of the bell curve of minds. Being anti-story is being anti-democratic is toward authoritarianism. </ hot-take>

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Can you please make your substantive points without putting down the rest of the community? This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

It's much, much (did I say much?) too easy to turn a handful of unpleasant datapoints into an entire theory-of-the-community—almost always one that presents it as somehow depraved or wretched. It's understandable, but it makes for tedious conversation. That's why that guideline is in there.

It was approaching 9 AM one early summer morning, uncharacteristically cool. The city was quiet as drops of dew hang heavily from the blades of grass and the flower petals, still fresh in their memory of the visitations of bees from the day before. The only sound was the sound of typing, as a comment was posted to HN expressing support for the GP. There's a time and place for literary exposition. Maybe this magazine is the right place and most of their audience appreciates it, but it's also OK to feel put off by it when you're curious and hoping to learn something.

Haha ok this was good.

It's messy. Anyone who claims one way (myself included) is probably Very Wrong On The Internet

Narrative is great but not everything needs a narrative. And I'll admit an article about someone who tried to reconcile the rational brain with the emotional mind is maybe such a place, but I just wasn't in the mood. Maybe I should have kept my experience to myself

But the narrative has to be captivating.

Didn’t seem to captivate OP.

The irony is that you noped out of an article about someone whose life's worth of thought led him to believe that you can't understand how someone is right without understanding their circumstances.

Your post is a sort of sad admission that your attitude will prevent you from seeing the beauty in everyone.

You do you though. I am sure there is a reason you are this way ;)

I will do me but I'm future I won't tell anyone, and I think that's better for all of us

You loathing others’ preferences /= them self-loathing. Presumptuous and insulting.

You'll never cut through this attitude. It is, as you say, perpetual. HN is their safe space, hence the strong reaction you're receiving. You're going to have to learn how to operate within the mindset if you want pleasant interactions here. Learn to appreciate the dull rationalistic mental sludge.

Putnam himself would feel perfectly comfortable here.

The guy who was disciplined for reading poetry on duty during WWII, who threw away his commissioned abstract sculpture would feel perfectly comfortable on a forum clearly hostile to anything that isn't a hard fact or a short thinkpiece about engineering management or an explanation of rust's reference counter?

I like to think that the things that drove him away from society and caused him to seclude himself from it are the very things this community values and seeks to protect.

Please keep in mind that the people who are anti-story are the same folks who view human interaction as a “problem to be solved”. They’re the outliers in society who make the rest of our lives easier. But they have gained way too much power in this world and are intent on dooming us all to their cold, dark, inhuman world.

[flagged]

How was the comment ableist?

Oblique references to autism and autistic individuals. Perhaps my sensitivity to such things is a little too high.

A million years ago around a campfire, I watched grandpa try to tell my child his favorite story. It wasn't going smoothly as he would like. I lovingly watched him persist. At some point he sighed and met my sympathetic gaze. It was time to kick embers and turn in.

Maybe it’s the pacing of the article that’s off. Feels like it’s wasting one’s time with self-indulgent prose.

The short story in your comment, OTOH, is very much better. I can see the scene, my mind has filled in some details, and it took only a couple seconds to read.

I think pacing is more aptly the issue than narrative. Perhaps even more specifically, the load-bearing first couple sentences dive right into establishing a complex setting before any other context is established. Even as I may enjoy narrative, I rarely enjoy effortful fumbling around in the dark unless it's with Joseph Conrad or Vladimir Nabokov.

Can you please not cross into personal attack or general nastiness, even when an article is bad or you feel it is? We're trying for something else on this site.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

So if I dressed my insults up in purple prose like the comment I was responding to, or the parent of that comment, did -- would that be "the kind of discussion we try to foster here on HN"?

That doesn't sound like a good-faith question to me.

We've asked you many times to stop breaking the site guidelines. If you keep doing it, we are going to ban you. This is getting absurd:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43875721 (May 2025)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35535148 (April 2023)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30275888 (Feb 2022)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29212633 (Nov 2021)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26418766 (March 2021)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25563542 (Dec 2020)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22050749 (Jan 2020)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20356769 (July 2019)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20350618 (July 2019)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20054704 (May 2019)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18797087 (Dec 2018)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18114166 (Oct 2018)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18034335 (Sept 2018)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17517586 (July 2018)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14577510 (June 2017)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13970380 (March 2017)

I am not anti story. I am in fact, a fiction writer. I live for stories. But there's a time and a place. And I think pigeonholing everyone who opines "tldr" as some sort of robotic fascist who wants all human discourse in binary or whatever is reductionist and moronic. I'm not burning books, I just thought an article should get to the bloody point

> Please keep in mind that the people who are anti-story are the same folks who view human interaction as a “problem to be solved”.

Yes. But your next statement is nonsense.

> They’re the outliers in society who make the rest of our lives easier.

Nothing about Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg made our lives easier. All they've done is made the social contract worse, making our lives harder, not easier. They've given lucrative jobs to a few, but all their market offerings gave the world is distraction and misery, in the case of Facebook, and flashy status symbols to chase, in the case of Tesla. They crowded out the market for competitors, so people can't have truly useful solutions to the problems Zuck and Musk claimed to solve.

Ask yourself why Chinese electric cars would be banned from the US market and you're getting there. Musk bought a social network with the explicit aim of making it worse, and more than succeeded.

I hate this (extremely popular) take.

Narrative is suasion, not substance.

The storytellers know of no other way to tell the audience what is important, so the medium is the message.

EDIT: and…the trope anticlimactic downvotes seal the drama

The only truly scarce thing for living creatures is time. The HN crowd expects respect of that so a disclaimer would help filter people with the wrong expectations.

I do agree, both approaches are valid to seek. Setting expectations with disclaimers would be helpful so people can enter willingly instead of perpetually critiquing via comment. I don't like a culture of bashing/minimising one approach, which I admittedly have just participated in.

But in my defence, I'm in a "punching up" mode here, in the minority sense. I'd probably argue for valorising data more in an arts space.

But something about the current tech world-builders not having respect for narrative makes me frustrated and afraid. How can we ever build things that account for parts of minds and life that we don't respect. (I sense a lack of respect for why and how narrative has been the vehicle of so much human progress and growth)

Sure, but “punching up” is also a classic copyrighting term.

That is indeed a take so spicy as to be shartworthy. Disliking this glurgy, fluff-laden narrative article style does not make one a soulless cryptofascist robot. One could imagine a different format for the article that front-loads the interesting bits and then delves into background detail, rather than forcing the reader to wade through pages of lit-fic-wannabe padding to get to the money shot. Articles used to be written this way all the time, but that was before writers and magazines were paid by the ad view.

Take out the flying duck “sh***rthy” and you will have made an excellent series of points.

I'm not a very critical reader*. When I read something, I don't have conversations with myself about "this could be better if..." or "the writer shouldn't have..." Instead, I accept what has been proffered and at the end decide if it had value for me.

* unless I make a conscious effort to, like when I'm asked to review someone's work

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