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How to leave the house

buttondown.com

55 pointszdw68 comments

I hate that I live in a world where people get a dog because socialization is so broken and a nameless interaction at a park is among the barrel-scraping interactions people are doing to cope with it. Like if it's gotten that bad we should be having a revolution, not getting dogs.

People have always been shy and unsure about meeting others. It is expressed different in different societies but the issue is there.

Are you sure that people have always been shy as unsure about meeting others? I honestly can’t imagine that. That seems to be a modern thing to me but happy to be proven wrong.

No way. I mean, yes, but the magnitude changes. People are way less social today than they were even ten to twenty years ago.

There used to be this plethora of study groups, non-profit associations doing whatever, book circles etc to meet people in a somewhat formalised manner that wasn't a date.

Big tech has displaced those and replaced them with nothing.

Book clubs are alive and well, my SO is part of two right now. I'm reading a book with coworkers and we'll be discussing in a few weeks.

Some old traditions are now competing with a larger variety of physical and virtual activities. IMO you could blame the car as much as the smart phone.

I blame the car more personally. My parents lived very isolated lives in the suburbs long before they got phones.

Blaming cars is an interesting theory. They spread out the practical community from like some mile or two to quite far. But can't fuzzy date 'the decline' with automobilism? Maybe the effects were delayed two generations?

Not always, just in living memory.

My grandparents are in their late 90s and they never had such issues. I was always amazed how they knew all their neighbours and visited each other without announcement. I guess it's something we lost with WW2.

Some people were always like that.

Some people, yes, but a whole community?

Almost everyone was like that.

I knew every neighbor on my block, growing up. If someone wasn't outgoing enough to join the neighborhood group events, they stood out.

Exactly what cause for the decrease in social interaction would we be revolting against? I'd say things like cell phones would be on the top of the list, but protesting Apple and Android won't cause an appreciable shift to decreased phone usage. People like their smartphones a lot.

Remote work also plays a big part in isolating us, but people seem to want to work remotely more than they want to go into an office. So again, you're fighting the tide.

Socialization is as broken as you want it to be. There is no shortage of activities like pickleball, which is highly social by nature, or more niche activities if sports aren't your thing. If anything, I'd say the massive number of available activities make it so easy to find our niche that we end up never interacting with other huge swaths of society simply because we have that choice.

fuckin

all of them

man

there's no shortage of opportunities--sure, no one said there wasn't. I said society is fucked up and huge numbers of people are lonely. the problem isn't that they can't get out of it, the problem is that they aren't.

Revolutions need targets. What's the target for how socialization has gone the past few decades? What material, unpopular opinion entity can be abolished to fix things?

If it was easy to have a target we'd have had the revolution by now. That's why it's taking so long: no one's quite sure what to do about it.

My money's on "social revolution where we all destroy our TVs and unplug our internet and throw away our phones" as the best way out.

But there's a lot of other things that need revolutioning at once. It's gonna take a big movement.

So, it will work like "the war on terror"?

You're not even trying to converse, go away.

Huh, in a different view a dog essentially means a kind of house-arrest, as you'll always have to be around home to take care of the dog.

If you have a destructive dog (no way to know in advance) you either have to crate it or risk destroying a lot of your stuff. Crating a dog is pretty sad and the dog won't like it. So you're basically trapped at home.

Most dogs will become accustomed to staying in a crate with a bit of training. But certainly don't get a high-energy dog with a strong working drive if you're not going to be able to give it a lot of activity.

The way to know in advance whether a dog will be destructive (after the puppy teething stage) is to buy a purebred. I know that everyone recommends adopting from a shelter, and that's a great option for many dog owners. But if you need more predictability then you can select a specific breed based on known temperament and typical behavior, then buy a puppy from a reputable breeder with good health records.

https://www.akc.org/breed-selector-tool/

From the perspective of someone who just moved from a developed to a developing city, please don't get a dog out of giving up. Have/adopt a child instead. Dogs/cats are indirectly being used to hack out the desire to parent offspring in developed nations which is really sad.

If you value socializing then create the opportunity for it, join a group activity or start one in your city and use social media to announce meets and eventually people will come. Shared experience is the most powerful social glue between people.

If you want to date go out Thu/Fri/Sat nights and sample Bars/Clubs in your city until you find 2-3 ones you like. Then start hanging out there every week until you feel comfortable. The goal is not to talk to attractive people, but to meet peers who are in the same position as you and then start/join a guys/girls group to do things together every week.

If you really like dogs and want to have a pet, then go for it. Just don't use it as a form of giving up on fundamental human needs, you're more resourceful than that.

> Have/adopt a child instead.

> Just don't use it as a form of giving up on fundamental human needs, you're more resourceful than that.

This glib advice is what lands you in an uncomfortable HR meeting or is the reason you won't get invited back for game nights. This will be deeply hurtful to families struggling with fertility or adoption and to individuals who experienced the foster system.

Neither apathy nor ignorance affect adoption or pregnancy. Families will be excluded by the staggering costs, marital status, employment history, disability, and gender and sexual identity.

Ive written a few versions of this reply. Some included my personal background having been moved by protective services, or some emotional stories about my siblings in the foster system, some with swears, and one was simply "check yourself." The issue is deeply personal. More advocacy is always appreciated, but I implore you to tune in.

Might want to look up the history of sidewalks a bit. TL;DR: it can be argued that the existence of sidewalks is a concession that roads are only for cars, where previously they were for everyone, including pedestrians.

>TL;DR: it can be argued that the existence of sidewalks is a concession that roads are only for cars, where previously they were for everyone, including pedestrians.

Unless you're defining "roads" to mean "not sidewalks", then almost by definition the statement "roads are only for cars" is false, because sidewalks are part of roads, reserved for pedestrians, and therefore roads aren't only for cars. The fact that there are reserved lanes for a particular type of traffic doesn't imply there was some sort of "concession that roads are only for" some other type of traffic, any more than bus lanes, HOV lanes, or bike lanes imply that pedestrians are getting pushed out.

Obviously they're not treating the sidewalk as part of the road, and why should they? In sensible countries walking in the general traffic lanes of a regular street is be fine.

>Obviously they're not treating the sidewalk as part of the road

From wikipedia:

"The primary features of roads include lanes, sidewalks (pavement), roadways (carriageways), medians, shoulders, verges, bike paths (cycle paths), and shared-use paths. "

Emphasis mine

>and why should they? In sensible countries walking in the general traffic lanes of a regular street is be fine.

I don't know what "sensible countries" you're talking about. Sidewalks are hardly some sort of concept exclusive to car-centeric America. Even bike/pedestrian friendly European countries have separate lanes for pedestrians, with some very limited exceptions such as during festivals/events.

From the Cambridge dictionary: "a long, hard surface built for vehicles to travel along". So not a sidewalk.

Get a dog, only if you can care for it.

And care for it for the long term.

A lot of people got dogs during the pandemic because they were at home 24/7

Now many of those dogs got sent to shelters because they weren’t properly socialized being isolated in the pandemic and the owners needed to go back to work

Get a dog if you can pick up the poop. It’s amazing how a lot of dog owners are too lazy to do this.

This is probably the least controversial thing Mike has ever written, so naturally the HN consensus appears to be universal scorn. (And for the record, I don’t even like dogs, but I’m also aware that’s a me problem.)

Excellent post, I enjoyed it quite a lot. I often tell people that if they want to meet new people, get a dog. If you want to meet girls, get a puppy. When I was in college I would see other guys my age (early 20s at the time) walking a new puppy around campus and they became magnets for girls.

Plus, humans were MEANT to have dogs, and dogs were meant to have humans. We grew up together; dogs are one of our first forays into genetic engineering. We created an animal which was perfectly acclimated to human companionship

> If you want to meet girls, get a puppy.

Since puppies turn into full grown dogs quite quickly, how often do you suggest I replace the puppy?

> We created an animal which was perfectly acclimated to human companionship

This is why I think having a cat is so much more satisfying. A dog loves you unconditionally, not by choice but because it was literally bred to do so. Despite this you still have to keep it on a leash. Cats by contrast stay with you because they want to, despite having every opportunity to move in with someone else.

Foster?

I hate to say it, but pet cats kill an estimated ~390 million animals annually (in Australia). They should also be on a leash and not allowed to roam freely.

Cats, like any other predators, are born to kill other animals. It’s a natural order of things. My cat regularly brings back mice, birds, lizards and little snakes. I do have to get rid of them, but he makes me proud.

Cats are invasive species in the US and Australia, with very few natural predators left

> It’s a natural order of things.

Natural, in the same sense that air conditioning and pickup trucks are natural.

Feral cats mostly live in cities, or are fed by farmers to encourage them to stay where they can protect feed stores. Like modern corn (maize), they don't naturalize into the wild.

Are you disputing the fact that cats are natural born predators?

I live in Europe though. Cats have been living in Europe for thousands of years.

> Since puppies turn into full grown dogs quite quickly, how often do you suggest I replace the puppy?

I’ll bite - you replace the puppy when the one you have expires after 14 years. Don’t be that guy.

Cats have also been engineered for companionship in areas where dogs weren’t economical. Cats were big in Egypt. However, like you said, cats have their own agenda - murder. Your outdoor cat has killed more small animals than your vet. Neuter/spay them and keep them inside.

> Since puppies turn into full grown dogs quite quickly, how often do you suggest I replace the puppy?

You must complete the mission before the puppy becomes a dog. Otherwise you must wait 14 years until you can get another puppy.

Or, you can have two dogs!

> You must complete the mission before the puppy becomes a dog.

The 'mission' being ...? One night stand? Fling? Established relationship?

Because people who find puppy ownership attractive probably won't stay with someone who re-homes the animal once they get what they really want.

You have to keep a dog on a leash because it wants to explore the world around it. You can train a dog to be by your side no matter what which you definitely cannot do with a cat which definitely needs a leash no matter how hard you’ve worked for its approval.

Cats won’t alarm you if a stranger sneaks into your tribes living area or your apartment. I have a 10 pound mix and I guarantee you she would take on a thousand pound grizzly knowing it was fruitless but in order to protect her pack including me. A cat is going to just run away from things like that and yeah I’ve seen the cat saves toddler from bobcat stories but those are the exception and probably more related to territorial. Who do you want a person who was raised to be a loyal friend and would sacrifice themselves for you or a person who is fickle and hard to win approval of and even when you do win their approval they start eating you within a few hours of your death.

Dogs have all kinds of behaviors.

Not all dogs can be trained to stay next to you. At least, not by all owners

I have a husky mix whose prey drive means he will charge at other dogs, kids, usually playful but not always. Positive reinforcement is meaningless because he cares more about the chase than any treat.

Also dog owners don’t seem to understand that the sweet loving animal they have at home can be very aggressive towards anyone not part of their pack

I have had off-leash dogs start scrapping with mine on walks and I GO OFF on those owners. 100% of the time they never apologize and tell me how gentle their dog is

Well lady, your dogs charged mine, barking and growling. And and I don’t like breaking up dog fights.

Point is dogs and owners come in all kinds. Lots of bad ones out there.

You can go on walks with a cat without a leash. I do it every night. It's a bit different to walking a dog, sure, but he never strays too far from me. It might not be for everyone, but it works for us.

Don't worry too much about it. Women are nearly as easily impressed by a full-grown dog.

Building a loving bond with a dog still takes work and energy. It's just that, genetically and instinctually they have a communication advantage: they can read humans better and emote to humans in more obvious ways than cats (having even evolved special muscles around the eyes to do so!). It's not like earning a dog's respect and love is inherently trivial. It's just that most people haven't moved past the "he's plotting to murder me" type assumptions about cats.

Man that feels entitled.

We made dogs for us because we needed them for protection.

And you advocate getting a dog now due some stupid reason and then keeping it potentially in a flat?

Don't get a dog. Don't get animals which don't get the env they need.

Don't get breeds which became breed into sickness.

There’s nothing wrong with adopting sick breeds like pugs. Just don’t continue their breeding.

Eh, it's a bit like buying ivory products (tusks, not soap). It encourages the breeding.

Buying a pug, I’d agree because it more directly comes from the breeder. As far as I know there’s no way a breeder or previous owner would know their dog is being adopted unless they’re actually making an effort to check in with the shelter. Even if they choose to, they no longer legally own the dog so that info is confidential. Regardless, they get no money out of sending them to a shelter.

Also dogs that don’t get adopted are often killed making it an ethical choice to adopt.

There is more than one type of dog. Many among the multitude are both capable of living in a small apartment, and not having genetic medical issues.

Some dogs are good in apartments. My hound is a total couch potato, you have to drag her off the couch to get her to go for a walk

I think this is bad advise.

I love dogs and cats but I am not someone who cares enough to properly take care of a dog or cat. So I do the responsible thing and don't have pets.

Getting a dog specifically to meet women seems insane to me. There are all kinds of conversation starters that don't involve getting a living animal.

Obviously you shouldn't get a pet if you can't take care of it. But getting a dog to meet people seems more fruitful than using dating apps, which seem almost completely pointless to me

> A few years ago I was reading a story about FOX News (know your enemy) and the author (who’s name I apologize for not remembering) mentioned that FOX News’ main goal was to make people afraid to leave their house

This isn’t knowing your enemy. It’s admitting you knowingly read articles that reinforce your bias. Reading or watching FOX News would be to know thy enemy

> Suggests buying a living being as an excuse to go outside

> Goes on to ridicule his own mom for the viewership of complete strangers

Um, yeah……I just use meetup.com to find groups with shared interests. It was a great way to make new friends.

Please for the love of God don’t get a dog.

Recent related thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44223212

If you live by a dog park like the author, maybe get a dog, he liked it.

The rest of the article is about sidewalks.

I can tell you stopped reading halfway through or you would have said the first third is about dogs, second third about sidewalks, and the last third is about bikes.

And the conclusion is about a falafel.

That article is about a specific form of dog ownership. A dog as a substitute child.

This is about a dog as an additional companion, and having a dog being a social lubricant rather than a substitute for any form of human companionship or interaction.

Which makes it even worse.

A dog for getting laid vs. being your best friend

I've observed the trend discussed in that thread. It's not universal to dog owners, but a subset that I'm guessing is regional. I don't think it's necessarily relevant to this article beyond superficially.

I think you can draw a line between general dog ownership, and the codependent relationship from the linked article. The latter is very common in women in their 30s near where I live, but I don't think it generalizes. e.g. entire personality revolves around the dog, can't leave the dog for any appreciable amount of time, cuddles with the dog in the bed, kisses the dog on the mouth, prioritizes the dog over family, friend, and romantic relationships etc.

Strong agree, we need fewer dog owners. It seems like 1 in 10 have dogs that are well mannered, meaning they respect other people and their space. Sitting on command (really in exchange for food) is not the end goal of training a dog. It needs to be calm and polite in every environment the owner wants to bring it into.

This article is a most welcome and generous gift. Well said Sir.

> Get a dog

Thanks for letting me know right off the bat to not read any further :)

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