Tesla model S eliminates range anxiety
motortrend.com
motortrend.com
I plug the car into a regular 110V outlet. I typically get 30-50 miles of charge overnight, depending on what time I get home and when I leave. My commute is only 10 miles each way so it's 100% full most mornings when I get in.
I've verified the car can do 240 miles between cities but you have to set the cruise to 60 mph or below. I keep a gas car for long road trips and camping, etc., but I don't use it much.
The Tesla is very cool. Strangers stop me to talk about it multiple times per week. Customer service has been off the charts.
High recommend. Go buy one.
When you drive an EV, acceleration is instant. Like, at the same time your foot goes down, your shoulders get thrown back.
Gas cars often take 0.5-2 seconds to get response from the engine, depending on the car & current conditions at the time you accelerate.
You get used to the acceleration in the Tesla after a while. But one year in, I'm still loving the instant response. That's what I really miss when I'm driving the gas car. It's just awesome.
268 Miles (or slightly less according to the article) is just amazing - less C02, less environmental impact wrapped in a high performance car which - will no doubt - have some detractors as a first iteration against well establish models (comparing it to BMW and Mercedes who have been around for almost 90+ years is a big ask!)
None the less - it's ridiculously exciting at what's been achieved and what will be achieved in the next few years in this space. I give it no more than 3-4 years until these cars will be doing 400-500 miles or more.
He was fired from Pay-Pal He didn't start Tesla Motors (that was Martin Eberhard) He didn't start spaceX
He is good at marketing though...
The Pay Pal Story is well known and documented.
As for Tesla Motors... I still claim he didn't found the company.
Here are my sources: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4441480
There was a culture clash when X got bought by Paypal. Elon was in charge of X and became the CEO of the combined company (as Peter Thiel took a leave of abscence) and wanted to switch from Unix to Windows. Max Levchin, the main tech guy at Paypal hated that idea. Elon initially got his way, and Max got marginalized. He then started looking into fraud cases and discovered that fraud, although low as a percentage of revenue, was growing rapidly. Max then persuaded people that the #1 priority should be to fix the fraud issue before it would kill them, and that they didn't have the time to worry about the technology stack. Elon Musk got kicked out, Peter Thiel came back to Paypal as CEO and Max managed to squash the fraud problem. Their competitors either failed to get traction or got crushed by fraud. With Paypal as the last one standing they won and got bought by Ebay.
http://www.amazon.com/The-PayPal-Wars-Battles-Planet/dp/0974...
But on Tesla Motors the fact of the matter is that it was started by engineers (Eberheard and Tarpenning) and control was taken away by an investor (Musk)
Some facts: 1. The first wikipedia page review on Tesla Motors from Jue 12, 2006 [1]: "The firm was started in 2003 by engineers Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning.... Tesla has also managed to secure initial funding from prominent investors, such as PayPal co-founder Elon Musk, and Google co-founders Sergey Brin and Larry Page."
RedHerring Article July 8 2006[2]:
"Tesla Motors said earlier this month that it has raised a $40-million Series C round of financing led by VantagePoint Venture Partners and Elon Musk"
Finally from Eberheard himself [3]: "Mr. Musk was one of the leads I followed."
[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tesla_Motors&o...
[2]http://web.archive.org/web/20060708071455/http://www.redherr...
[3] http://fora.tv/2011/05/22/Martin_Eberhard_Learn_by_Doing
Cofounder is someone that is there from day 1. Tesla Roadster existed before Musks's involvement. Martin Eberheard searched for Ventura Capital, one of his leads was Elon Musk.
See my other reply for the links.
Lesson is. Corporate history is a lot like hotdogs. They have equal claim co-founder status.
I don't think "many".
E.g., I don't think many of us here on HN were surprised to see Drew Houston on the cover of Forbes.
The only person I'd expect everyone to know is Steve Jobs. I wonder if that will be true of people who are 5-10 years old today, in a decade.
I'd assume Musk is more popular than tech entrepreneurs overall due to rockets and cars; even in tech no one knows about Zip2 and "one of the many founders of PayPal" is kind of a stretch (outside HN/VC, who knows Keith Rabois or David Sacks?)
Even the most successful business/tech entrepreneurs are less famous than a B or C list media celebrity.
Perhaps more interesting will be the transition time, that point where half the cars are self driving and half are manually driven. Will manual drivers become more aggressive because they "know" the robo-cars will get out of their way? I expect it will be less fun before it is more fun.
that would be quite interesting to see. i could certainly see myself becoming more aggressive if i knew others around me would adjust without incident; though that would depend on if self-driving cars are clearly labeled as such (i.e. with special plates)
I don't think anything will eliminate range anxiety other than time. As more people get electric cars and start to build their lives around them, their acquaintances will start to see it as more normal.
It's almost like the very early days of the automobile, when each driver had to carry a ton of extra gas, since fill stations were few and far between. Like any bootstrap, it took a long time to create the virtuous cycle that mutually reinforces the value of the customers and the infrastructure. Electric cars will need to go through the same thing.
The other big issue is the time to refill. 30 minute quick charge is incredibly fast for electricity, but still incredibly slow compared to filling a gas car.
I think that will end up requiring both a social tweak and an infrastructure one. Once people are comfortable with the concept of an electric car, it will be only natural to start requesting (and the necessary civil authorities adding) charging ports in standard parking areas.
Imagine in NYC, a parking meter that also has a charging plug for the car. Raise the meter's rate just a bit and you can cover both the electricity and install costs.
If you didn't even have to plug it in, just drive it to work, park it, drive it home, park it and it could charge automagically in both parking spots - its much more convenient than petroleum and would potentially be a big plus FOR getting an EV.
1 - http://software.intel.com/en-us/videos/channel/general/wirel...
Plugging in at home is already more convenient than petroleum.
It seems like using 40% more energy to charge your car is an inefficient way to avoid plugging in. Project Better Place is already working on robotic plugs that plug themselves in.
I'm not sure if you have to pay for it, but I've certainly seen people use them.
Perhaps self-driving cars are a solution: if the self-driving EV you're in runs out of power, you just jump out and grab another one. The transportation company worries about charging it.
Spending an extra hour per year at a Tesla SuperCharger represents a huge time-saver for me, and likely for the vast majority of folks who are complaining about it.
The average power needed for driving is very low, only 10-20 kW and the battery handles the peaks like when you need to climb a hill or overtake. For example in this article they used 78.2 kWh in 5 h, meaning average 16 kW. The small generator could be called a spare energy source.
Instead, all plugin hybrids have big expensive heavy four cylinder engines which defeats the whole point of building a hybrid in the first place. For example 1.4 liters in the Chevrolet Volt / Opel Ampera.
And then Tesla has no high energy density backup source which again limits the usability of that car (and forces you to keep another car). And raises anxiety...
But... Actually you are not far from something. This is actually an approach from Audi: http://green.autoblog.com/2010/03/01/geneva-preview-audi-a1-... From what I read though this approach was not approved in the mother company, VW. Let's see who wins at the end.
Don't get me wrong, this is awesome for filling the commute hole, but many many people use their cars for longer trips as well. Until you can make it viable for both I'm not spending many tens of thousands of dollars on it.
I'd focus on 2+ car households. I would love to have an electric that doesn't suck and another car for the wife, traveling, hauling kids, etc. The Tesla doesn't work for me in this case because of its price and the other EVs are not interesting enough for me, but hopefully that will change as the prices come down and the tech spreads out.
I do agree with you that the Tesla is not a mass market vehicle yet. But not because of the 450-mile trip issue. It is because most people/families should not (or cannot) be buying a $50,000 car, even if it means saving a few thousand dollars a year in fuel costs. It would take too long (if ever) to break even on the increased cost. Once EV's get down to more competitive prices, then it starts making more sense. However, if you have the cash, and you like the idea of the Tesla, then yes you should go for it, because without early adopters, Tesla could end up folding.
It sounds like you're not in the Model S market segment. Folks that can buy cars in the $50k-$80k range typically wouldn't balk at the cost of renting a car for the weekend. The hassle, maybe, but not the cost.
There are also lots of folks & places whose weekend trips are inside the range of the Model S (consider Boston -> Martha's Vineyard, or Manhattan to The Hamptons for instance).
There are any number of two car households where one car is unsuitable for long family trips. Somehow they exist just fine.
$179. Still not seeing "hundreds of dollars" here.
Personally I just drive around the SF bay area. Maybe 120 miles on my longest driving day. For the one-two times a year I go farther, I suppose I need to rent a car, take transit. or have someone else drive. That seems like a reasonable price to pay to have the coolest car on the planet for a few years.
That doesn't however just make it "my problem." There aren't very many people buying any of these cars, so I assume it's a problem for more than just me.
The point I'm trying to make, is that if I'm spending 50-100k on a car, I want it to solve "the driving problem." i.e. if I need to drive somewhere, I'd like to be able to do it. Whether I do it often or not is irrelevant. In my case I actually do do it quite frequently, but I suspect that many people don't buy these not because they actually do this once every month or two like I do, but because they want to be able to if they want or need to.
Maybe it's vacation, maybe it's seeing family, maybe it's an emergency. You need to go somewhere and you want to jump in the car and go there. With this you can't, and instead have to go spend several hundred extra dollars and a have a huge hassle of renting a car. No thank you.
What is interesting, though, is that at least in Los Angeles pretty much every other car in the $100k range is a lot more common than the Roadster. I think I've seen one once. Even considerably pricier cars are more common than that.
If you mean Teslas - an article in june said there are 10k reserved, which means the waiting list is a year long.
If you mean electric cars in general - I would urge you not to compare the leaf or volt to a tesla model S. The former was sold to cost conscious people who ultimately and correctly saw false economy, limitations and questionable design. The tesla can be sold to anyone who would buy a new BMW/Audi/Mercedes and wants to look earth conscious, tech savy, or hip.
Chevy Volt is doing halfway decent selling 1,800 units per month even if it isn't as good as original projections.
Reservations in August for Model S are already coming close to that pace and the upward trend is accelerating, with each retail store now ramping up to multiple reservations per day.
Tesla is already planning to increase production to a monthly rate that translates into 30,000 units per year, but based on current trends it looks increasingly likely that next year's production might be sold out as early as January or February.
As to who will want the car, it's anyone who wants a new BMW/Audi/Mercedes and who wants to look earth conscious, tech savy, or hip while also saving a ton of money compared to the competition.
Model S Performance (the regular production model as opposed to the limited edition Signature Founders edition used in the test) costs less than BMW M5 even before the huge yearly savings on gas and maintenance (the performance is identical to the tested car, but it has different paint and interior options and is not a limited edition).
Model S 85 costs the same as the 550i GT (its most similar competitor) and saves thousands per year. It also competes with and compares favorably to various 7 series offerings while costing the same or less, and always saving a ton of operating expenses.
Those two cars are the bread and butter of the Model S lineup and are hyper competitive with their conventional counterparts. There are a million plus cars sold in this segment globally and Model S has a big competitive advantage.
Don't forget that the Model S costs around $50,000. Most buyers can afford maintain a second car for the kinds of trips you're talking about.
Keep in mind that you don't get 250 miles of range unless the place on the other end can charge your car for you. You only get 125. That's really not that far.
I doubt that. Take a look at this:
http://www.autospies.com/news/Study-Finds-Americans-Own-2-28...
The average American household owns 2.28 vehicles. The percentage of households that own three or more vehicles is a whopping 35 percent.
Furthermore, the most common pairing of vehicles in American households with two to four cars is a full-sized pickup truck and a standard, mid-range vehicle. The latter can basically be a Tesla.
As for budget, sure, the Tesla is a bit on the expensive side, but it is not difficult to afford for middle-class families.
We drove from Fontana on the eastern edge of the L.A.
basin to San Diego and all the way back to L.A.'s Pacific
edge on one charge. Five hours of continuous driving.
To me that's pretty far - I could tolerate a 1 hour break every 5 hours.
I certainly agree that serious range and uptake will need serious charging and generation infrastructure.
If your family already has an actual charge station they DON'T need it because they aren't about to go driving 200 miles while you are visiting, and if they are the car can be charged before you get there, or charged after you are done with Model S. It takes 4 HOURS to do a full standard charge. You can charge 2 cars in a night easy.
If your family doesn't have a 240v plug it can be installed for anywhere from $300-$1100. If you go there regularly, just pay to have it installed and it will pay for itself.
Musk said Tesla might die, but it has nothing to do with sales. They have sales coming out of their ears right now, the problem is ramping up production to get cars to people who are throwing their money at Tesla.
What if someone made you a "range extender" module that attaches to the towing hitch? I'd design one on a detaching cart so no lifting would be involved to install.
Finally, not sure how this works, but it seems that "running out of gas" would be a much bigger problem. Can't just get a tank of gas and bring it out to the car. I assume you have to get the car towed to charging station? Are there any other options? Any easy way (i.e. something I can carry) to get a charge away from home?
http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/charging/spare-mobile-co...
(They also have higher power options)
The scheme I was thinking about involved gas powered generators. So running out of gas is closer to the problem with a regular car.
Hats off to you if you can put up with that much time in a car, but personally I would take a plane.
I threw out the 5k number as something where I would be extremely confident I would never hit before being able to recharge, not as a number of miles I go frequently.
Why isn't the Leaf doing better? when I heard about it I was super excited, and if I had to replace my Prius, it would be my first choice.
I think they hit the tradeoffs just right: for almost all daily driving, you'll never use gasoline. But if you have to do a long trip, you don't have to care about range.
What am I missing?
Maybe you crossed it up with the Chevy Volt?
If I buy a home, the next car I buy will probably be an EV. Until then, i'm going to keep driving my Infiniti.
The program: http://chargepointamerica.com/program-info.php
http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/range?next=ev_mic...
It costs twice as much as the Versa it's based on.
Basically, it's not a compelling package.
Yes the range is better than other electric cars but half the article is about range anxiety. Maybe not the best link title.
still an impressive car :-)
The regular production model that this is based on is the Model S Performance. It's identical, except it has different color and interior options (because its not limited edition). That runs ~$85k after the Federal Rebate, which makes it cheaper than the BMW M5 (a similar competitor in terms of performance, if not practicality).
The standard MS85 (the big battery) clocks in at ~$69,900 and is a bit slower than the MSP, but still as fast as a 550i GT, which is basically the same price and a similar car in terms of features.
There are cheaper options, but most buyers will be paying $60k and up for the MS60 (few seem to be interested in the MS40) so I can see how that can generate some sticker shock.
But hundreds of thousands of cars in this price range get sold in the U.S. every year and the Model S is a bargain in that segment, both in terms of its MSRP and especially in terms of its 5 year total cost of ownership.
This is not the Leaf that costs twice as much as its competitors. Model S easily will save its owners $10k+ over 5 years (and likely much more). The Model S is much closer to a $40,000 car in terms of how much money you actually have to have available to pay the monthly payment, insurance, taxes, gas and maintenance.
Still... if I had that kind of auto budget, I'd definitely buy one.
It would be nice if the all-electric vehicles provided a port in which you could plug an emergency battery that would take you, say, 20 miles or so, so you could get to a recharging station if you overdrive your range. Yes, you have a range gauge, so you never should get into that predicament, but we've had gas gauges for decades, yet we still see people trudging toward their stopped vehicles with newly-purchased gas can in hand.
In Germany, they write you a ticket for that.
You could say that about any luxury car. The vast majority of people simply don't drive more than 250 miles in a day.