Comment by yeureka | Hacker News Reader

Comment by yeureka | Hacker News Reader

Not surprising.

I left Portugal in 2003 to work in the games industry. There were still plenty of jobs in Lisbon then and salaries were not so bad.

At the time I thought I would be away for a couple of years "just to get some experience".

I would love to go back to be closer to my family and old friends, to enjoy the weather the beaches and nice food, but as another expat told me, our jobs just do not exist in Lisbon.

Setting up a business is hard with the asinine tax system currently in place ( taxes are complicated, very high and if your business has zero profits it pays a special tax ), a culture of late payment by clients ( it is so common to have unpaid invoices that you can give these to your bank in exchange for a loan ), the absolute aversion to risk taking by most businesses, the ingrained idea that what is foreign is better and the implied notion that to win a contract you need connections to a politician or a civil servant.

I know a lot of professionals in knowledge based industries that have left, some with their entire families. In a recent poll, more than half of university students plan to leave the country.

At this rate Portugal will become mainly a touristic destination.

The average tax burden for Portugal in 2011 was 39%, higher than the OECD average of 35% but not that high compared to the rest of eurozone. Belgium had 56%, Germany 50% and France 49%. Taxes are not the main problem in Portugal. Dysfunctional organisations and an ineffective legal system are.

And how are you going to help that? Or you don't care? The asinine tax system is more or less the same as I'm used to in NL/DE. Taxes are not for your pleasure. Sure it could be easier, but it's not easier in most civilized places. I'm not Portugese, but I would do my best for my country and not leave like you have no other choice.

I think you will find that the tax system (and permits etc) are worse. Tax rates are higher in de/nl but the system is somewhat simpler. Spain, just to pick a random example, just removed a six month process to get a permit to open a retail location. And it is not like you can apply online or anything. I am in the UK where most stuff is even easier (was looking at setting up a company in different European countries, which you can do in the UK for £4.99, but is much more complex elsewhere, and requires a lot of capital).

Well I have companies in NL/DE/ES/PT and I don't see much difference. There are differences, but frustration wise, they are just all at the same level. In Spain I go with the flow which basically just means stuff takes forever, but everyone seems fine with that.

Why are you talking about "staying and fighting" for your beloved Homeland if you've got companies in various countries? Shouldn't you be happily shoveling truckloads of tax money into your own country's coffers instead of giving it away to others?

I do :) They are all owned by the mother company in NL; they pay a bit of tax everywhere but most in NL.

Also, your beloved homeland IF it is your beloved homeland (it usually is). I'm not a big patriot; I like ES/PT more than my own country.

I'm not a big patriot; I like ES/PT more than my own country.

Well, why have you been talking like a "big patriot" that frowns upon non-patriotism then?

I care. If I didn't I wouldn't post here.

But there is so much a single person can do.

And I am very involved with portuguese tech companies at the moment.

I just can't afford to live in Portugal any more.

But what does that mean? Portugal is very cheap (compared to mostly everything) unless you live in Lisbon. So don't live in Lisbon. What do you mean?

Most (all?) tech jobs in Portugal are in Lisbon. I know companies in Oporto (Portugal 2nd biggest city) that have problems hiring people because everyone flees to Lisbon when they finish their degree. I tried to move to a smaller city (I'm not a fan of large cities) but there were very few oportunities, mostly PHP positions where you spend all day coding crappy CMS/CRM/ERPs. Sad but true.

I thought Lisbon was cheap as well, greatest cups of coffee I had for .50 euro.

Cheap? Yes, if you come from a country like the US, UK, Germany, etc. The problems is that salaries for tech jobs aren't very good compared with said countries.

But it's much cheaper, so why is it a problem? Why do you need to earn a salary to pay for a E4.50 coffee if you buy it for E0.50? It's only a problem if you earn much less than other countries but your expenses are the same, right? I mean Lisbon is expensive compared to other cities in PT, but wages are also higher to compensate. They are not 'high enough' (with the '' to say ofcourse they are never 'high enough', but you know what I mean?)?

We decided not to go to Lisbon because of the sheer amount of 'jumpers' (I don't know the proper term): people who will go to another company for E100/month more (probably because there is so much choice there). It's too hard to filter them out and we don't want them. We tried it for a bit but people coming to interviews with proposal letters from other companies in hand to get you to outbid is just not what we want. It's like cheating; you'll know they'll do it again.

Yes, the big companies are. What is that fascination with big (consultancy) companies? The work there usually is like seeing grass grow. And you'll be 'dispatched' to a client. If you want to live in Castelo Branco please mail me, you can start tomorrow :) (and you won't be making boring stuff either)

I am from Lisbon, not a cheap place by any means. Granted, coffee outside is cheap and going out at night is also affordable, but when you take into account the average IT wage living in Lisbon is expensive. And what is the point in moving to another part of the country and staying away from my friends and family like I do now just to pay a bit less in rent?

Even with the high costs of living in London I can save more money than when I was living in Lisbon, but crucially I am exposed to more work opportunities that increase my experience and value as a developer.

The kind of stuff I have done abroad just does not exist in Portugal, at least at the time it did not.

And with regards to the patriotism aspect of your comment, I regularly send money to my family and take vacations in Portugal. All this money was earned abroad. Also, I regularly work for Portuguese customers in projects for foreign clients which means that I am helping with the exports of the country.

Finally, I am not nationalistic and I think those kind of feelings are detrimental to the evolution of civilisation. If anything I consider myself European, and I can't wait for a democratic centralised european government that brings some proper law and order to clean up the corruption and ineptitude of the politicians running Portugal, which is now the most unequal country in the EU with the lowest social mobility and an education level below Mexico.

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