Community Is Motivation on Tap | Hacker News Reader

Community Is Motivation on Tap

alanwu.xyz

117 pointslunw49 comments

I like to follow Arnold Schwazenegger's Pump Club free newsletter, but not because I am a body builder.

You're right, it's a community where you get solid no-nonsense advice, like, ditch the supplements except creatine and maybe whey protein or vegetable protein.

At the same time, he emphasizes building desired habits, to the point where thinking is not required anymore for that purpose. He even goes as far as saying your own brain can be your worst enemy, it wants you to be comfortable.

If I say any more, I'd be overthinking it. It's a good motivational community for fitness in general. Just like you said, specialty communities for specialist advice. But the google news feed I get just scrambles my brains. They've profiled me for 30+ years, and they feed me nonsense now, because I answered many of those questions many years ago. AI is not good at forgetting.

Note: many neurospicy brains do not get the thing where something happens on “automatic”. If you’ve tried to “build a habit” and never got to the “now it’s automatic” stage, don’t beat yourself up about it. AFAIK, we have to rely on patterns and explicit attention and reinforcement (“everyday I do this, I have a good day, so now I’ve got more motivation every day to do it”)

For me it’s often that once a habit gets automatic, I forget about it and stop doing it. My habits are mostly formed by things I fear and think about a lot like getting out of shape and fat, going broke or dying lonely.

This seems implausible. People with mild mental illnesses are still animals. All animals can be conditioned. When you leave a building, do you exit through the door or the window? I assume the door.

Except it’s harder and harder the more you age. And it’s true for animals too.

I don't know enough about the science of what you reply to, but neurodivergence is not a mental illness, so not sure what you're implying here. I'd also wager people leave rooms by the door because it is easier, so I don't think that requires a habit or conditioning.

Neurodivergence is an internet-nurtured buzzword so it doesn't have a very definite form in the first place. In general it refers to conditions like autism, ADHD, and Tourette's, all of which are found in the DSM, a compendium of mental disorders.

> Neurodivergence is an internet-nurtured buzzword

No, it's a well-defined term from an expert in the space and a member of the community [1], coined to describe an underserved group of people who didn't have existing terminology to describe themselves [2]. Reducing it to a "buzzword" to describe people who have "mental disorders" or "conditions" is a gross misunderstanding of both the term, the people it describes, and the space.

[1]: https://neuroqueer.com/neurodiversity-terms-and-definitions/

[2]: https://neuroqueer.com/throw-away-the-masters-tools/

Conditioning does not equal "habit". You can train a lot of things to the level of muscle memory (like I always check seat belts before moving and avoid taking them off, or how I mentally recall coordinated turns even when turning while walking), but it's a completely different set of behaviours - or at least totally different difficulty level - when it comes to "habits" that take longer time and aren't linked to directly executed skills - think like making a habit of training every few days to get more fit, or even habit of checking email at the start of work day.

People with ADHD don't experience the task-completion-reward-loop like others; i.e., it's vastly diminished. This makes building habits more difficult because it looks more like a task that takes energy rather than continuing an establishes behavior.

> When you leave a building, do you exit through the door or the window? I assume the door.

This is a poor example; I think discussing workouts suffices. If a workout is mentally engaging (bouldering, arial silks, an active team sport) it's easier to engage in than a simple, unengaging, repeated task (weight lifting, running, cycling). Why? Because the mentally engaging exercise is appealing because it absorbs attention, which can help overcome the diminished reinforcement cycle.

If you don't already have a workout habit, framed to an ADHD person, it's a crap value proposition: spend time and energy to do something boring and you should feel better, but historically the things people say will make you feel better never have that effect, and you only ever end up with less time and energy to do the things you actually want to do.

In my personal experience, I loathe going to the gym on my own because it's boring and takes time and energy that I would rather spend interacting with friends or playing games: it's a "task" that I "should" do, but it never feels rewarding when I do it. However, if I go bouldering, I'm not bored because my brain focuses on the "problem" of positioning and coordination and I feel like I"m having fun because of the problem I can satisfy my brain with, which distracts me from the energy expenditure both in the logistics (going to gym, changing, showering, etc) and from the actual work my body is doing.

> AI is not good at forgetting.

There is also a related feeling of fatigue with our own digital archives - photos, old writings. We like to save them but not to look at them. They evoke powerful and somewhat uncomfortable feelings. And once we write something down, or take a photo of it, it gets out of our head, we don't care about it as much. The simple presence of the archive changes how we think.

Same here! I don't want to be reminded of an passing interest that I had ten years ago when I was researching a topic briefly, either, which is what a newsfeed might offer up. And I completely agree about old photos. Sometimes I get a new used phone just to start fresh. My stack of old used phones is always there if I want to see the old photos. But I've never looked.

Same with email contacts in gmail. Someone I briefly corresponded with about business 15 years ago will pop up as an email address gets typed ahead automatically and I will just smh and type over it. It's good to just move on to new things sometimes. Forget unpleasant jobs in the past.

I don't disagree with the benefits of community.

But the thing he describes with StarCraft Vs whatever the brainrot game is can be explained differently. I think the author likes the idea of liking StarCraft, but doesn't actually like playing it. Brainrot on the other hand is engineered to be addictive. Surely if he LIKED playing StarCraft he wouldn't have to be searching for motivation. Personally, I know that in my life I only need motivation for the things I don't like. The things I like I just naturally do a lot.

One insight that I've had is that people often don't really understand what they like and don't like. How many times have you heard "oh I wanna be a writer" "ok what have you written?" "I haven't written anything yet because I'm not a writer yet." These people like the idea of having achieved some end result, but they don't enjoy the process, and aren't even aware that the two are different.

In fact some times I think the word "to like" isn't that useful as it doesn't map well into anything in the mind. I think perhaps we should differentiate between the ideas of "things I planned to do", "things that I did", and "things that when I do make me feel such and such internally". If you re read the post with these ideas in mind, it makes a lot more sense what's happening: the author planned to do one thing and did another. You no longer need to invoke strange ideas like "I need community to give me the motivation to do the thing I already like doing because without motivation I do things I don't like".

My experience is similar enough to the author's though. I was a Masters level dueler in starcraft2 and had a huge passion for the game, and a huge part of that was that the community was exciting at that time. I participated in the subreddit, I wrote articles, I casted games on the side. My friends played the game. I eventually had a go/no-go moment where I could've kept pouring myself into the community, potentially worked with folks like Artosis and Tasteless, etc.

But all signals were that the community was dwindling and blizzard wasn't properly invested in the game, which lowered my motivation a lot over time. So my decision was No.

There's liking the process, then there's liking the overall experience (including end result). Like doing exercise or whatever.

> But the thing he describes with StarCraft Vs whatever the brainrot game is can be explained differently.

Author clearly hasn’t watched Artosis stream before.

(Context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbaT7zPskPM)

One problem with this is that people nowadays have a harder time figuring out what they truly like. Even disregarding the constantly pushed images and adverts of what companies want us to like, people are nowadays also just less bored. This stops them from trying new stuff and encountering activities that they truly enjoy.

Using the example of the writers; the writers that I personally know all seem to have started writing things as a fluke, often as children, not to achieve something but just to do something fun. Or as a result of a school assignment and finding out it's actually pretty enjoyable.

> I think the author likes the idea of liking StarCraft, but doesn't actually like playing it. Brainrot on the other hand is engineered to be addictive. Surely if he LIKED playing StarCraft he wouldn't have to be searching for motivation.

Although you're mostly right, I do feel there's some nuance to be made. Although this kinda ties in to like not really mapping well to how the brain functions.

This is kind of similar to something called 'health choices' in psychology. Although we all know that e.g. smoking is bad, it's still hard for people to make the 'right' choice every time. And that doesn't necessarily say anything about if people 'want' or 'like' to stop smoking.

Even if playing starcraft was fully alligned with the wants and likes as they exist in the brain of OP, the existence of an abundance of available snacks can still make it hard to choose the 'healthy' option.

As a side note, your comment really reminds me of Charlie Brooker's 'How TV ruined your life', especially the aspiration episode https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNGK9ni4aSY

I think the author is overselling the benefits of communities a bit. Sure, groups can boost motivation through approval-seeking and availability bias, but they can also trap you in groupthink or misaligned priorities. I’d say the Brawl Stars grind example (despite author disliking the game) isn’t really a win.

Communities can hijack your goals, pulling you toward their agenda instead of yours. Overreliance on them risks eroding self-discipline when the group fades.

Instead, define your goals clearly and use communities sparingly, for knowledge exchange, not validation. Relying on communities too much can leave you stuck in an echo chamber, chasing approval over purpose.

Sometimes moving somewhere is better than not moving at all.

If not careful, others will have you moving for them. Despite the arguable personal (or collective) benefit, it is manipulation.

To what end? Undeterminable. Good to rely, bad to be dependent.

A fun idea, but I'd like to read someone writing not about the concept, but about their experience trying to consciously shape their participation in community to help them achieve their goals. How well does that work in practice? What's awkward about it, and what goes smoothly? When does it break down? Which interests map well onto this approach?

Been "doing" community for 10 years from technical to leadership communities (focused on Brazilian CTOs). I can answer the question above if you'd like to know.

I don't have much written, but I think about it daily.

I have a simple question. Is it worth building a community? Outside of being paid to do it, is it worth doing? Seems like more trouble than it's worth to me.

when it's a community of practice, yeah, I think it absolutely is worth it.

it’s where I learn the most. Talking to people facing similar challenges, hearing how they approach things, learning new tech, and new businesses models. It also builds networking and creates opportunities.

That said, I don’t think everyone needs to build community. Most people won’t, and that’s fine; but just participating makes (and helping the organizer whenever you can) is good

What are the most common issue/mistakes that make communities fizzle out?

Communities are basically promises: you create expectations, and they usually fizzle out when that commitment isn’t met. Same applies to events.

Most people think structure or rules keep a community alive, but they are just tools. What keeps communities alive is just being there for the users and in the channel they are used to talk and be active (whatsapp in my case)

Also when leading a community it is important to step back. Let others speak/ to leave them be. It is easy to "monopolize the mic" but the real magic happens when others start owning the space. Your role as a community organizer is to create a stage for others.

if you ever moderated an IRC channel, it’s the same energy: keep the lights on, be present, but don’t over-control :^)

Check out "Atomic Habits" by James Clear - he documents precisely this approach with numerous case studies of how community accountability transformed people's habits across various domains.

I feel like I am constantly looking for relevant communities but I find it really really hard to find anything. Maybe I live in a too small city or something.

I suspect that my current social media addiction tendencies is a compensation for not finding good communities for my interests.

You are 100% right. Finding a good one is incredibly hard. Usually requires a capable and dedicated person to run (which are very hard to come by).

> Usually requires a capable and dedicated person to run

This makes me think that there's some friction to this that could be alleviated. Like having more of and more diverse third places.

I used to be part of a number of theatre groups. Those groups did often have dedicated and capable singular people that made it work. But other times it was more of a group effort. Often the most dedicated people arose to the occasion once the context was there, because they had a bit more intrinsic motivation for what we did than others. And in some of the cases we got a lot of help from various institutions for admin and getting a place to practice, which certainly lowered the friction.

The hardest, best way is to build it yourself.

I'm not so sure. You'd still need to figure out how to find and attract the people you want to be around while keeping the people you don't want out. Itd probably be easier to keep trying different avenues until you find a group you vibe with

> "Seeking approval is in our genes."

Sure, but so is seeking food. Not controlling one's desire to seek food leads to obesity, diabetes, heart disease, etc. Not moderating one's desire for applause leads to similar issues, more mental neurosis than physical disabilities, but equally harmful in the long run.

> "Looking at successful athletes, founders, musicians, game speedrunners, or overachievers in any area, they seem to have unlimited motivation to do loads of tedious work or practice."

That's also part of many people's marketing and promotion strategies: "I grind all the time". In the real world, random chance, parental resources, or other 'non-self-made-person' factors often play significant roles in apparent success stories. Since people are seeking approval, and the overall society celebrates the 'up-by-your-bootstraps' narrative, people will sell this narrative because they want that approval - addiction to the applause button.

I've seem that desperation for approval that seems rather common in the social influencer world before - in the eyes of a junkie hunting their next fix.

This isn't to say some level of community isn't important and useful - taking a course in a technical subject where you show up at an appointed time with other people and then present your project at the end of the course, that's all good and motivating - but if the only goal is to get more applause, that's mental illness.

Also suggests 100% WFH is not as good as some weekly face to face time if part of the goal is to keep people motivated and disciplined

WFH does not mean you can't have face to face in today's age

Come on let's not twist the meaning of phrases (assuming you're saying a video call is "face to face")

"Face to face" is a protected term that means meeting IRL.

I feel like I grind harder if anything when I work from home. Just because you aren’t physically in the same place doesn’t mean there isn’t community.

I do occasionally do onsites that are valuable for community building so perhaps it’s more 98% wfh

Honestly I go to the office and it's just full of people chattering about non-work things and generally not doing work. It's demotivating. WFH days I'm far more focused and productive.

Also open floor plans suck

It's well studied topic in psychology of motivation. In the main theory of human motivation, Self-Determination Theory (SDT), it's one of the three main predictors of motivation change. It's called "relatedness" – the need to feel connected to others (others two are autonomy and competence). These three function almost like a slider that you can increase or decrease in order to influence yours(or others) motivation in your particular domain or situation. It's one of the life-changing theories in psychology. Similar to "game theory" you don't need to get deep into it, but rather learn the fundamentals to start seeing world (mostly motivation/wellbeing of you and others) differently.

Also applicable to living alone vs. living with someone else imo.

i always felt that it didn't matter what job i had on as long as i was part of a good team where we could support and motivate each other even if the tasks themselves were boring. in fact a good team is the only thing i find motivating at all. no work is interesting if i have to do it all by myself or of i have to fight teammates or office politics.

But be sure to join a non-toxic community.

author likes community over any given hobby or game, they should reflect on that and consider that it's all centered around group-activities for them

Obligatory Schwarzenegger:

"The kind of people who train alongside you in a gym makes a difference. If you are surrounded by people who are serious and train with a lot of intensity, it's easier for you to do the same thing. But it can be pretty hard to really blast your muscles while the people around you are just going through the motions. That is why good bodybuilders tend to congregate in certain gyms. By having the example of other serious bodybuilders constantly in front of you, you will train that much harder.

That is what made Joe Gold's original gym in Venice, California such a great place—a small gym with just enough equipment, but where you would constantly be rubbing shoulders with the great bodybuilders against whom I had the privilege of competing-like Franco Columbu, Ed Corney, Dave Draper, Robby Robinson, Frank Zane, Sergio Oliva, and Ken Waller. Nowadays, it's rare to find that many champions in the same place, but if you aren't sharing the gym floor with great bodybuilders like Flex Wheeler, Shawn Ray, Nasser El Sonbaty, or Dorian Yates, it can be very motivating if there are pictures or posters of these individuals on the walls or championship trophies displayed.

In 1980, training at World Gym for my final Mr. Olympia competition, I showed up at the gym at seven o'clock one morning to work out and stepped out on the sundeck for a moment. Suddenly the sun came through the clouds. It was so beautiful I lost all my motivation to train. I thought maybe I would go to the beach instead. I came up with every excuse in the book-the most persuasive being that I had trained hard the day before with the powerful German bodybuilder Jusup Wilkosz, so I could lay back today—but then I heard weights being clanged together inside the gym and I saw Wilkosz working his abs, Ken Waller doing shoulders, veins standing out all over his upper body, Franco Columbu blasting away, benching more than 400 pounts, Samir Bannout punishing his biceps with heavy Curls. Everywhere I looked there was some kind of hard, sweaty training going on, and I knew that I couldn't afford not to train if I was going to compete against these champions. Their example sucked me in, and now I was looking forward to working, anticipating the pleasure of pitting my muscles against heavy iron. By the end of that session I had the best pump I could imagine, and an almost wasted morning had turned into one of the best workouts of my life. If I hadn't been there at World Gym, with those other bodybuilders to inspire and motivate me, I doubt that day would have ended up being so productive.

Even today, when I'm training for other reason, such as getting into top shape for a movie role, or just trying to stay in shape, I absorb energy from people working out around me. That's why I still like to go to gyms where bodybuilders are training for competition. Even today, after all this time, it still inspires me."

p. 87 in the 1999 edition of /The New Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding/, by Schwarzenegger and Bill Dobbins. http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0684857219/

very nice. that captures it.

But it's the same deal with the folks you work with, run with, climb mountains with.

In fact, in a recent Pump Club newsletter, he said coworkers can make you or break you. Especially if they're sub par.

So sure, maybe individuality is overrated. Sure, community helps.

That’s the case for everything. I remember training in a boxing gym with some pros. Everything was on a level so much higher than I had seen before and I raised my own level a ton until I had to realize that my natural speed and strength was just not sufficient to really make it.

I think that’s also why children from high achieving families usually do better in adult life. What they view as “normal” is just a higher standard than what most children see. I remember being friends with the son of the local (big) factory owner. They communicated with their children on a totally different level than what I was used to with my parents. When they entered professional life they had a better understanding of the business world than most of us will ever achieve.

Nowadays the "muscle gym" doesn't feel like the boxing, muai thai and BJJ gyms (a small community of like minded individuals). Its just a place I go to execute movements defined by the expensive metal machines.

Even if the gym is run by an old bodybuilder with old machines and weights, its mostly younger people that maintain it, and they don't know you were allowed to have fun and talk in that kind of place, only 10 or 20 years ago..

The light bullying when I went to a gym in the 2000s was not awesome, but the current atmosphere is even worse...

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