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Comment by dbbljack | Hacker News Reader

counterpoint: you only get your first time, one time.

Counter counter point: if you mess up your first time, it's likely you'll never be able to enjoy the experience.

Continuation the counter points: most traditional uses, guided by shamans or priests use heavy doses.

I had expiremented with moderate/recomended doses of lsd and psilocybin before participating in an auahuasca retreat... and the doses were shocking.

This was a relatively tame centre in western Europe that had trained psych nurses in attendance. Still, the Shaman handed out monster doses... and offered a second one a couple of hours in... and again the following day.

Many traditional practices conceive of "levels" corresponding to doses, and the lower levels are not the ones associated with transformative spiritual experience.

I know there are higher levels out there, but I’ve found even moderate doses of psychedelics to be more than enough to be transformative. You just need to focus the energy right.

valid point, just adding context.

I have no recomendations of my own.

Counter counter counter point: That's a good outcome.

> Counter counter point: if you mess up your first time, it's likely you'll never be able to enjoy the experience.

That's what drug prohibitionists would love to happen, so they should encourage such a "wrong" experiment instead of prosecuting it. :-)

Might be true for some, but I had a long series of bad experiences when I was a teenager (tension and paranoia), was convinced that it wasn't for me, and only in my 30s I started having very profound and positive experiences. Now I only experiment alone, in a non-distracted, aware, self-reflective manner, as if it were a meditation aide.

And it's a very bad practice. No experiment ever should be taken without an assistant (sitter in this case).

Bad advice. Yes there should be at least one other person who knows what you're doing, but if you're experienced in the matter, solitude is the best practice. The emergency contact person could be a phone call away, just in case.

"I know what I'm doing" said the victim before they died.

problem is that when you are really in deep, you are not able to make that phone call. It is good advice to always take someone with you. It is like saying: more experienced bikers don't need to wear helmet. Yes, 99.99% of the time things will be fine, but it's still good advice to always wear one. Because that 0.01% can lead to severe consequences.

Exactly.

Unexpected things happen, mental states swing, and now you're in a mentally compromised state in-between reality.

Why do you say that? I generally just sit there alone, listening to music and observing inner processes.

There are some other commenters on here that seem to implicitly be talking about what I'd consider hero doses. I don't need high doses to experience notable differences in my ability to sense and self-reflect.

Ehh, I would qualify that with it mattering how much you are going to take. Like if someone was going to down an entire bottle of vodka and get raging drunk they should probably have someone around to watch them too, but if someone drinks a single beer it would be a huge over reaction to consider it too dangerous to do alone.

In my experience, first times with drugs like MDMA are very important just because the tolerance builds up basically forever. First time with LSD however... Better safe than sorry. My first time wasn't that impressive, but it was safe and didn't involve any negative emotions. I've had many other times since, much more impressive and important.

Drugs' build up and tolerance varies wildly between the drugs, the person and the experience one seeks.

Chemically and physically, LSD for example is gone in a few days and certainly weeks. But taking two days in a row needs "insane" amounts to get you the same (physical, chemical) effect. MDMA is almost entirely gone in months, after which a normal dose will get the same (physical, chemical) effect. Good documentation with even calculators for this can be found online (be aware that it may not be allowed to even visit such sites in some countries!)

I deliberately emphasis the "physical and chemical" because the experience itself may be something you get used to. First time MDMA is wildly different from any time thereafter for many people. For many this is even stronger with LSD or Psilocybin. Many people report that the (first) experience opened up their mind and being profoundly and lasting. The more one gets used to the feeling the more this feeling itself becomes routine.

The intense love and euphoria from e.g. MDMA may be the same on an objective level, after letting the chemicals disappear over months, so technically one can achieve this level a few times a year. But the feeling itself is something one could get "used to" and "become bored by". Similar to how experiencing a rave sober for decades, or even how after decades of traveling it could get boring and a routine.

My point is: indeed first times are important. Even if the textbooks say that tolerance is gone after X time.

Yes. And I wish I would have started with 75 microgram.

Imo not true for psychodelics

You just open the door for many more first times to come

Agree! Go into it with great preparation — be sure to read the manual closely.

Less is more

First time is rarely especially good. This applies to more or less all substances.

Wat? Maybe my bubble is different, but in my surroundings and experience, the exact opposite is true.

Now, an important factor here is that a first time often comes with anxiety, insecurity, and even fear. With many substances these feelings get amplified so that makes the entire experience be mediocre or even bad. Especially for that, I think it's very important to experience this in a safe, loving, caring and depending on the type taken, controllable, silent, busy, energetic, dark, light etc environment.

That's... not true, lol. That can be true, especially for psychedelics, but that's absolutely not true of other drugs.

MDMA comes to mind. I've also heard (though not tried, nor will I) the harder narcotics such as heroine and meth are almost never as good as the first time.

The first time being the best time is often exactly why people become addicts.

Know then that what you've heard is incorrect. Heroin especially tends to cause nausea and vomitting on first time use, as the body reacts to something as unexpected. Meth may be great the first time round, and still be nowhere near as good as it can be - the drug has a steep learning curve and requires rigorous discipline for it's effect to be exploited fully - a mindset rarely present in first time users. With practically any drug, initial effects are very much subject to the intention of the person taking it, just as much as physical attributes (fitness, body-type, metabolism, etc).

Not to downplay all obvious and less obvious hazards of these 'harder' narcotics, just saying the whole 'first time being the best time' as an explanation of why exactly people become addicts relies very much on hearsay. It's the sort of language that came with the whole war-on-drugs-thing, and does not reflect reality.

That's more like the first time having sex can be special. The novelty gives it a lot of extra. But like in sex, you'll learn to be better at using drugs and the experiences become richer and more pleasurable.

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