Ask HN: How to Deal with a Bad Manager? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: How to Deal with a Bad Manager?

Need some real life advice and stories from experienced folks.

I’ve been working for few years in a large company (think faang as a good approximation) in one of the departments under 1 manager. Relatively good one.

Then by the will of higher ups some teams got drastically reorged and I ended up in a different team with a new manager. Terrible one.

Micromanagement, lack of vision, poor communication, poor planning, zero support, full package. About half the team share similar view. The other half seems like just playing along.

To add more context the overall management culture in the company is neither toxic nor great. There is definitely hierarchy and go over her head doesn’t sound like a good idea. Internal movements are basically non existent.

I still care about the mission and about what I do. Though not as much as before this all happened.

What would you do in my shoes to make the best of the situation?

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I'll give this a shot, speaking from experience.

I’ve worked as a consultant with small and large organizations for most of my career, and I’ve seen this exact situation play out more times than I can count.

If I could go back, I’d tell my younger self not to stick around under bad leadership or in an unhealthy environment. It’s rarely worth it. Even if you care deeply about the mission, a toxic manager will slowly drain your motivation and confidence. I stayed in a few of those situations too long, thinking I had to tough it out. I didn’t, and neither do you.

The projects I’m most proud of were with teams I genuinely enjoyed working and growing with. That’s not a coincidence.

Start quietly looking. The right environment can bring out the best in you in ways this one won’t.

I really hope it works out for you.

+1 to this. I was in one situation for too long. The problem for anybody in this situation is that finding a new job is hard. If you're not the type of person that interviews well or is great on paper, then the trick to pulling off the switcheroo is to focus on making great relationships now as much as anything. There are many ways to hop on to a new rail, you just have to know that it's the right decision.

Don't be a hero in the organization. In the past job. I essentially took over my manager by consistently outshining them. Then they made some unforced errors and I took advantage of the moment, made a political move, and forced their displacement. It was a distinctly unpleasant experience and something I took no glee from doing. Moreover, if you look at the grand scheme of things, nobody remembers that, and you're neither a hero to yourself nor those around you for it. It was a year or two I could have spent finding a productive, healthy, and more facilitating organization.

> If I could go back, I’d tell my younger self not to stick around under bad leadership or in an unhealthy environment.

The one thing I'd add is, be aware of the politics of the organization.

Is this new manager seen by his bosses to be doing a great job? Or are they still trying to get traction?

I once went from the best manager in my career straight to the worst one due to a reorg. But after a couple months it was starting to become clear upper management didn't think he was so great either. So I waited it out and the new manager lasted less than a year. So I didn't have to give up and leave a team & job I otherwise enjoyed. Had I reacted too quickly I probably would've quit in disgust and later regretted it when the bad manager was removed.

This. I've had mental health problems from working under bad managers, and I refuse to put up with it now. In fact, I can't put up with it - I have found that bad management leads to depression and I end up having to leave anyway.

Your manager is supposed to be the responsible adult in the room, and competent at their job. If that's not true and they're making your life worse, you have no obligation to suffer that.

If you possibly can, make this clear to your manager's manager. Even if it's only at the exit interview.

+1. You're paying a career tax and an opportunity cost by sticking around and hoping the problem somehow self-corrects.

This is good advice - I will only add that I usually advise people to never quit in a huff before having a new job in hand. You will feel great warming yourself by the bonfire of the burned bridge, but later it can be pretty cold when you are unemployed.

This.

I don't think GP was suggesting quitting in a huff, but it's important enough to reiterate.

It's always always always easier to find a job when you have one.

I get the stress of looking, interviewing and negotiating for a new job is a lot on top of the work from your current job.

But, fair or not, there's a worry about hiring a lemon when someone is not currently employed. It's something one can and should address, but it is easier if one does not have to.

Especially in this job marketing (at least in the USA) when getting hired is difficult for everyone.

I'll add one thing to this. If you do follow this route, find a new job and give notice to your company, be prepared for them to suddenly wake up, tell you they'll fix everything, make a counter-offer, and urge you to stay.

This doesn't always happen, but it has happened often enough to me, so you might think about the possibility in advance and what you would do.

For myself, I have NEVER taken the counter-offer and stayed. When I have had a bad manager, I regarded that as a failure of my manager's manager as well. I didn't think the situation would instantly be fixed, miraculously, if they did fire my boss or move me to a new position in the same company. But that is just my experience. It would be good if others who have had a different and successful experience staying would speak up too, so you can get the full picture of possible outcomes.

I've had the same counter offer experience. I decided to stay, since I got what I wanted out of the deal. You need to be prepared to negotiate from a position of not-bluffing however.

If they don't offer incentive enough to make staying actually worth it, then do not, no matter what guilt trips are applied.

yeah, exactly this: leave. Start applying for things. Use the "Relatively good" manager as your reference instead of the terrible one.

If you get an opportunity for an exit interview, write out a thing pointing out every way in which the terrible manager is terrible.

Encourage your co-workers to do the same.

I've been in this situation as well and there are no realistic options to improve it without leadership recognizing the manager's affect and redressing same.

> Micromanagement, lack of vision, poor communication, poor planning, zero support, full package.

This isn't going to get any better. More likely it will get worse over time as your new manager is under more stress to deliver on promises made, without the requisite planning and/or consultation with their team needed.

> About half the team share similar view. The other half seems like just playing along.

Experience suggests the latter group shares the same view as the former, but have other priorities (family, stock options, retirement, etc.) outweighing sharing them. This is not a judgement nor a bad thing. It just is.

> I still care about the mission and about what I do. Though not as much as before this all happened.

This is an inevitable transition resulting from this scenario. A cheeky phrase for this is "beating the care out of you."

> What would you do in my shoes to make the best of the situation?

Make as few waves as possible; do what you are assigned to do ethically.

Take your time to identify an ideal opportunity in another company.

Say nothing of the job search.

Only move on to another gig if you have an employment agreement in place.

At all costs: preserve your mental energy. Once this is gone you are in trouble. Symptoms include losing your intellectual sharpness, burnout, damage to personal relationships etc. I've seen people be so crushed by a bad work situation that their technical skills eroded to the point that they couldnt escape to another job. Dont let this happen to you.

Practically, plan your exit. Build your network within the org and outside of it. Keep up with those coffee chats and casual zoom meetups. Remain friendly to others in the org. Cultivate a skill or expertise outside of your current role that could be a stepping stone out of the org. Remain ultra professional at all times eg never badmouth the boss (but dont offer false praise either).

If you have the mental energy, you might also try this, but be warned it can be very difficult: try to understand why your manager is how they are. Every villain is the hero in their own story. They believe that they have to act in a certain way. It's possible that they are irredeemable little martinets, but far more likely that they are inexperienced and flailing around, grabbing onto markers of authority to give themselves a sense of control instead of facing their fears. If you want an intellectual project and iff you can disassociate yourself from the impact, you might try figuring it out and using the knowledge to form a relationship grounded in a better sense of reality.

There isn't enough data to make a blanket recommendation, so here are some things to consider. All are generalities and can be ignored if certain specifics override them, so use your judgment.

- If your employer is doing well, it is better to stay longer and get promoted from within. (Based on "Relatively good one" I'll assume this is the case.)

- If your employer reorganizes frequently, is supports the "Stick it out case."

- If your employer encourages people to find their own new jobs within the company, that is usually the best route. (This isn't always the situation. In many companies you need your current boss's blessing) Based on your explanation it seems like this isn't the case.

- If you are learning a lot, add that to the case to stay.

- If your new manager has ethical issues (as opposed to just competence issues) start your search right now. Not 30 minutes from now. Not tomorrow. Not next week. Now.

- Same if you're put on any kind of performance improvement plan (PIP). Don't think "I'm competent, I can work my way out of it". PIPs are paper trails to keep them from getting sued. Consider the duration of the PIP to be your severance.

- As you've figured out, it's rarely a good idea to go over your manager's head unless you have an outstanding relationship with the CEO or similar who would ask you later "Why didn't you come to me first?"

- If you have to leave, find a new job first. Then be professional on the way out, and don't throw your manager under the bus. Just say, "I really enjoyed working for you, a dream opportunity came up." You never know when they'll be asked for a back-door reference check on you.

- Similarly, don't badmouth your boss when you interview. (You don't want to seem like someone easily discontented.) You can say "It's now or never to leave, and I think your company has a much better future. I'd rather invest in my career there."

Good luck navigating this!

Hi, what kind of ethical issues you might be thinking of?

The manager I had that seemed like this at first was lying about things constantly, presenting different information to her peers, her reports and her manager. If I had the time over again I would have quit the job the very first time I thought “I should get this in writing”, even though at the time I just thought she was incompetent.

A few made up examples:

- Asking you to lie about the status of your work in a status report. (Hiding bad news)

- Deliberately misrepresenting how much something will cost. (Or did cost)

- Asking you to interview someone from a competitor purely to gain market intelligence.

- Falsely blaming another team for mistakes.

- Misrepresenting financial metrics or KPIs.

Micromanagement can be bad, though sometimes it's needed and sometimes it's a symptom of a weak manager doing what they need to in order to stay accountable. Sometimes it's a control tool for sociopaths. When the ethical boundaries are crossed, it's a symnptom of sociopathy.

> If your employer is doing well, it is better to stay longer and get promoted from within. (Based on "Relatively good one" I'll assume this is the case.)

It’s almost always easier to get promoted by changing jobs where you control the narrative than try to go through the internal process. Besides that because of salary compression, you usually get paid less even after a promotion than someone coming in at that level. Yes this is true at FAANG size companies too.

At a Megacorp? You can find a new team at your employer.

Or you can find a new employer.

Or you can try to outlast your manager.

Over 25 years at my Megacorp I’ve outlasted many many useless first levels, and only found the need to change teams once.

I am currently in a situation where my useless first level got promoted and is now my skip, and he has hired TWO equally useless new K levels to replace him. We call them “The Orange Cats” as they collectively share one brain cell and no one is ever sure who possesses it on a given day.

"The Orange Cats" is gold!

I cannot accept credit, as a great friend in my team came up with it. And being on a decent team sure helps one outlast a crap manager.

If you can transfer to another team internally, do it. Otherwise start looking for another job. I’ve done both to escape bad managers. In my experience there is no way to “fix” a bad manager. The only solution is to leave.

I'd like to disagree with this but it's the only thing that's worked for me.

If you do stay, there's a good chance the manager will eventually be found out. You can play a subtle sabotage game in the background to expedite it. Don't save them from their mistakes, and undermine them by talking about the mistakes. Don't blame them but rather let conversation about mistakes lead them to the same conclusion.

Personally I'm not patient enough to stick around anywhere, so I definitely wouldn't in your case unless I really cared.

There’s this saying - you don't quit a job, you quit a manager.

Either tough it out until the next reorg and hope for the best, or start working on your resume :(

Going over their head can turn into a pretty sticky situation, because your skip might actually do something, and you might still be working for that manager.

Also, this is a tricky job market. I ran into a similar situation years ago, tried to fix it, and ended up just switching companies since it was a smaller outfit and I fell out of love with the project.

I think the safest thing for you to do, is to try and secure a transfer, or if you have to, a new job outside the company. This took me months, it might take some time. So be ready to knuckle down if you gotta.

On your way out, tell your skip what's going on, and how much you like the project and the mission. Maybe, just maybe, they'll fix the management problem and invite you back.

If you are not getting along with your manager, or if your well being is at stake, you need to look for a way out.

Micromanagers are impulsive, have a short attention span and tend to get their story wrong.

Keeping records offers some protection against accusations behavior from those people.

Ask for complete requirements, estimates that are as refined as possible and don't go on record agreeing to unrealistic timelines.

Do not confront your manager no matter how much provocation is involved.

I still care about the mission and about what I do:

Stop caring. You can contribute even more somewhere else later. Do your job, exactly 8 hours, focus on work-life balance, but leave quietly and professionally.

Here's a piece of advice that has helped me many times over.

Learn how to manage up.

Another one that goes hand in hand: help your manager help themselves.

In you case, I would pick one of those things from your list of grievances and help them improve. I would pick something that you think your manager would see as helping her potentially get some benefits for herself.

Potentially, this might involve you doing the work for them.

I've done it, and had it done to me. In all cases it worked out decently well.

Sometimes the manager saw what I was doing and let me have freer reign. Everyone won. In some cases I moved into their role when they left it.

Be careful: this might lead to you becoming a manager one day. You said that internal movements are non-existent, but an internal movement caused you to have a new manager. They might be rare, but they apparently do happen.

Apply elsewhere before you get fired IMHO.

I had a bad manager. As in verbally and physically aggressive. When I did the "correct" things: formally register my disability (autism) with my employer and file a complaint with HR... they gave me a syrupy story about how what I desribed was unacceptable and that the main investigator was on PTO, but to please reach out if I was retaliated against.

I reached out after said bad manager terminated me, and got a syrupy story about how maybe this week, but it's a busy meeting so the week after, they might bring up my concerns about retaliation.

I'm currently facing possible homelessness, because exercising your legal rights in these matters is time consuming even if you find a lawyer willing to help.

So dude... if you have these concerns, enough to ask for advice? Polish your CV and apply around before you have a CV gap.

Depends on the level of bad.

Most of the time managers aren’t bad, they just aren’t partially good. They want you to jump up or down in a particular way.

Whatever, as long as you don’t mess with my money I’ll do what you want. The rare truly shit bosses I’ve had would lie to me about my own pay. In one exceptional case they decided to not pay me until 60 days after I started. This wasn’t communicated until after I worked there for a month.

Another instance I won’t talk about.

Then again, I did quit 2 jobs just because my manager was an idiot. If I find a better job anyway why not. Life is too short to deal with stupid people

I have experienced similar situations in the past. The first advice that I could give to you is: don't act instinctively. Wait, understand how the situation is going and then develop a plan. I left a company for a terrible C-level manager (probably the most obnoxiuos and incompetent person that I ever met in my life) and then she was fired during my resignation period.

The second advice is: fight only a battle that you can win, otherwise adapt yourself. If your manager is approachable, talk with him in a polite and propositive way and tell him that you will work better without micromanagement, if you need more communication, ask for weekly 1-1, etc. If your manager is not approachable or touchy, avoid the criticism and beat him with their own weapons: he is micromanaging and this has an impact over the projects? Do what is saying and then if the projects are failing, point the responsability to his choiches. This require a lot of social skills and organization to cover your ass, but it's probably the best way to dismantle a terrible manager.

Otherwise you can leave, but leaving could be always problematic and require time.

But the main advice is: figure out a way to push the stress, the pressure out of you and don't lose mental energy on that.

I'd reach out to your former manager that you got along with and ask for their advice. Seems you had a good rapport and they know the company dynamics.

I had a bad manager at a previous job, although they were just more incompetent than actively trying to micromanage.

I managed to get onto another team by making connections internally. I think showing initiative, interest, and promise to another tech lead or manager in their area could go a long way.

That being said, even after switching teams I eventually left for another job and took a big pay cut for it, but was totally worth it for my sanity.

This is a deeply frustrating and energy-draining situation. Thank you for sharing it so candidly. The fact that your motivation has taken a hit is a completely natural and valid response to poor leadership. You are not the problem here.

I'm a founder based in Seoul, so I can't comment on the specifics of US corporate culture or the internal politics at your company. However, I believe the framework for making a decision in such a situation is universal. When I or my team members have faced difficult career choices, I've found it helpful to analyze it through three lenses:

1. The Learning Lens: Are you still growing? Despite your manager, are you still acquiring valuable skills and experiences that you couldn't easily get elsewhere? Is the work itself still challenging you in a positive way?

2. The Mission Lens: Do you still believe? You said you still care about the mission. The question is, how much? Is your belief in the mission and the product strong enough to endure this manager for another 6, 12, or 18 months? Can you still find a way to contribute effectively to that mission?

3. The Life Lens: What is the daily cost? This is the most important question. What is the daily tax this situation is imposing on your mental and emotional health? Is this cost sustainable over time? Is the person you are becoming in this environment—perhaps more cynical or stressed—someone you respect?

No one on the internet can answer these questions for you. My only advice is this: take an hour, write down your honest answers to these three questions. Don't decide today. Put the paper away, and read your own words again in a week.

Often, seeing your own thoughts written down, separate from the daily frustration, makes the path forward surprisingly clear.

Ultimately, your career is long, but your life is happening now. Your well-being is the most important asset you have. Making a conscious choice for yourself, whatever that may be, is a victory in itself. Wishing you clarity.

Luckily this only happened to me once. I left. There were also some other things going on that made the decision easier. Had I felt more secure in my career I wouldn’t have needed those reasons. I was much happier at the next place.

If you can’t leave try going above and beyond so you’re noticed by another manager with more clout.

Learning how to form a relationship with your skip is a valuable but undertaught skill.

You have to understand that

a) There is no "objective" standard by which a manager can be evaluated as good or bad

b) You are not in a position to determine whether your manager is "good" or "bad", only whether they are a good or bad fit for you. The person who determines whether your manager is good or bad is your skip.

Good managers are the ones that get retained and considered for promotion, bad managers are the ones who are slated for demotion or firing. It doesn't matter if a manager does things counter to every management best practice, if they consistently get promoted, they're a "good" manager. If you don't like that, you should consider working for a company where this doesn't typically happen.

How you deal with a manager that is not a good fit for you is to determine how much political capital they have within the organization. If they're there to do the job the company wants them to do but you simply don't fit into the larger objectives, then you need to accept that for what it is and understand that the purpose of a system is what it does.

However, if you understand that they don't have as much political power as they would seem to let on, then you have a lot more room to maneuver. It's possible to work with the skip to transfer you to a different team because the skip values retaining you more than they value keeping that manager happy. It's also possible though risky to help build the case for the skip that this manager was not the right fit and should be helped to find a different position, possibly at another firm which would be more suited to their skills. Skips don't have visibility into the day to day workings of a manager so understanding what a skip needs to build their case and how you can be an ally in the documentation can be a valuable function you can serve.

But ultimately, these are both lower probability scenarios and you should be preparing as a likely contingency for your exit from the company and finding a manager more suited to you.

Life is too short to put up with such useless idiots. As others have already mentioned, either talk to your skip (and above if required) or start quietly looking.

I would also add, look out for yourself. No one is going to look out for you - and be careful who you talk to.

I am in a mixed spot. My direct manager is good, competent and we get on well.

The CEO is pleasant but incompetent, if he gets involved with a project directly, he'll make it worse not better.

For me, it's a balance, if I'm still reasonably happy going into work, I'll stick with it. When it starts to change that I semi-dread it, it's time to go.

Right now, I'm casually looking for other jobs, not committed to leaving, but seeing what my options are. It's a shame because I like my manager, and I like my colleagues, if only the CEO would just stay out of the day to day stuff.

> Right now, I'm casually looking for other jobs, not committed to leaving, but seeing what my options are. It's a shame because I like my manager, and I like my colleagues, if only the CEO would just stay out of the day to day stuff.

If you find yourself having a viable employment alternative, perhaps having a conversation with your CEO addressing his micromanagement could be had? Of course, I recommend not sharing your employment options with coworkers (including the CEO) as this might complicate matters.

Yeah, he's not that guy. He's sort of a dreamer, he thinks he's going to invent the next Salesforce or something with practically no investment.

Find a new job

The effects of bad managers take way to long for any accountability to take place. There's to much lag between cause and effect with managers and there isn't direct impact except towards their employees.

>Micromanagement, lack of vision, poor communication, poor planning, zero support, full package. About half the team share similar view. The other half seems like just playing along.

For me, micromanagement is alone a deal breaker.

>What would you do in my shoes to make the best of the situation?

Ive been there and legit the correct decision is to exit. The micromanager will never change and your life will be hell.

The point of micromanagement is to take credit for your work when it goes well and shift the blame to you when it doesnt go well. You can never feel like you won at anything.

Keep your head down, watch money appear in your account and get another job or see if you can transfer. You can’t do anything about a bad manager.

And don’t be naive enough to care about the “mission” of any profit seeking company. They don’t care about you and if you got hit by a bus tomorrow, they would have an open request for your job before your body got cold and would not remember you in a month.

Any FAANG size company sees you as just a number.

A job is a transaction - you give them labor and they give you money.

Simple. Live with it, seek to be transferred, or take your abilities elsewhere. My advice is to decide which without delay, as not deciding will take a significant toll on your life.

The only thing that works is to roll up your sleeve and take ownership of your deliverables on a level that management wants to see. Provide the manager with all the reports and communication ammunition they require. Once they feel comfortable that you understand their needs, they will leave you alone. Until higher ups decide to go a different direction again.

This is the only way if you want to stay.

Most people won’t tolerate it and will leave. Watch for turnover.

I’ve been through the same thing where a good manager got replaced and I ended up stuck with bad leadership. At that point, I just focused on learning from coworkers and projects that still had value, and kept detailed notes on my own work to give myself some sense of control. When you can’t change the environment right away, staying steady yourself is the priority.

If you liked your old manager, keep in touch and see if you can move back under them. If not now, still network for later. Of course, check in and ask them for advice too.

But, overall the working conditions have changed, and that's a good opportunity to take a breath and look around and see if there's somewhere else you'd rather be.

Find a new job. You’ll get a better manager and a raise.

Plus, you’ll gain wider experience that will make you more valuable in the future.

I had a terrible manager at a past company and I put up with it for three years before I left.

My advice: Leave. Nothing will give you your physical and mental health back. You absorb their stress and it goes right into your body. Do you really want to put up with that in the foreseeable future? You will never get your health back.

There is nothing you can do, and the more you try something, the worse things will get. The fact is that either you get paid enough to put up with the nonsense or you don't. If you don't, look for better pay at your next job. Also, always be working on your side gig in your free time.

One of you doesn't fit in with the team. Find out who it is. Often it's you. If that's the case, leave the organization. I'm telling you this from my eight years in the military.

Assuming you don't do the obvious thing and flee, here's how to best handle it - disassociate your internal value from your manager's opinion. Disassociate your value from the value of your work. Eventually, you should find something better but the best you can do in the meantime is be respectful and do the work you are assigned without sticking ypur neck out.

What tends to happen normally is you either work twice as hard to do the job as you want to do it AND meet your manager's random demands, or you feel like shit for not meeting your manager's demands, or you eat shit because of how they are feeling that day or whatever other nonsense a bad manager may dump on you.

As Eleanor Roosevelt famously said: "No one can make you feel bad without your permission." So the first step is to put on some thick skin.

And I am talking about a bad manager kind of like how people talk about handling a bully. Because, without much context, I know that they have power over you and that you fundamentally disagree with then. So don't try to change them and don't change yourself.

This is the only sane way to move forward without burning out quickly or feeling like shit all the time. Best of luck.

If your company doesn’t have peer 360 reviews or similar you should implement it.

A lot of this stuff gets caught by those processes

Get a new job or switch teams. You’re not going to change her or the situation.

I’m in a similar position. Old manager was new, first time manager. Not bad but not great. Now we have a new manager who is neurotic and emotionally immature: micromanages everything, attacks their own people for perceived slights, technically mediocre but wants to contribute code/direction, has to have the final say on everything.

I’ve been a manager myself. Some people think I was great at it and the best manager they ever had. Others probably didn’t think highly of me. You can’t please everyone.

If you feel comfortable with this person and have good reason to believe they can take feedback: give it. You’re probably not without leverage as long as you’re known to do good work. If they’re a manager worth half their salt they will support you. Be constructive and assertive with your feedback. Let them know what behaviours are causing problems for you and what you need to change. You might be surprised by the exchange. These things can have positive outcomes.

If you don’t feel comfortable with giving feedback to this person then start a folder with their name. Screenshot every important conversation. If they have specific demands of you try and get them in writing and document what you agree to. Be petty. Out manager them. Then you can go to your skip manager and you can point out the behaviours and provide evidence for their impact on your productivity/career progression/etc.

It doesn’t help everyone in all situations but keeping a folder of letters to this person that you will never send can help blow off some steam. It might also help, in the long run, to read over them. Sometimes relationships change for the better and you might not be so angry about things that happened today as you were back then. Emotional regulation and maturity are useful tools. Don’t let them get you angry. Hopefully this folder gets fewer entries over time.

Lastly if there is no hope then what you do next might depend on your personal situation.

If you’re young and have no dependents, mortgage, etc then it’s a lot easier to find a new gig and quit ASAP. If you have the financial runway quit right away. The next gig might be 100x better but you’ll never know if you don’t take the leap.

If you’re not young or have other reasons that require you to have a stable income then you need to hunker down. Compartmentalize: leave your job at the office. Don’t go to happy hours, don’t volunteer extra work, etc. You’re there to fulfill your contractual obligations for money and benefits because people depend on you. It really helps to have a reason outside of work to keep going: friends, family, a hobby, aspirations to start your own business some day, etc. Write down that goal, the plan, etc and remind yourself of it every day. Then show up and do exactly what it required of you to the best of your abilities.

Go Star Trek with it. Offer your suggestions when asked but row with the team when your manager chooses the direction. Bad idea and they ignore your advice? It’s their bed to lie in. You’re here for the money not to feel good or have your way. You go in the direction you’re asked to go. You’re in this with the team. That’s it.

Worst case scenario: you’re burning out, being abused, don’t feel safe or threatened: get support and get out.

Also might help to get a career coach/therapist. Someone you can sound off with.

If the company is large enough, could you move to a different team?

try the direct approach, "with all due respect sir, you suck at managing and i think you should put yourself on a PIP"

Talk to your skip

Quit.

Smile and wave (boys) - turn up for the cheque, with a big heaping scoop of malicious compliance.

But that's just tactical; it needs a strategy.

I assumed the strategy is just to do that until retirement and not face any big bothers with it xD

Do you think you really have any other choice but look for a new job?

work just fast enough to not get whipped

Leave

Quit

At the end of the day, you and your manager are people. If you remove the roles you’re playing, they could be a friend. They’d want to know of their management was an issue. Can you help them understand their deficiencies in a constructive way despite the roles you’re in? Can you get past that? I often find I have more empathy and sometimes (a lot actually) more experience than my manager. I share corrective suggestions even if it means a script. At the end of the day either you both rise above you knuckle under and lump it, or you lateral or leave. I would attempt at least while looking inside and out. Good luck, best wishes.

Idk this take seems like a wildly one-sided approach in favor of the incompetent manager. Where is their giving in? Where is their improving to the situation? When I'm not performing, I get put on a PIP, if they are not performing, it suddenly becomes my job to help them save their ass? Am I missing something? This advice sounds like something a terrible first level manager would gaslight their direct reports into believing in order to get a free ride.

Well, you aren't in a position where you can put them on a PIP. Someone else can (and maybe should), but you can't.

So what are you going to do? Are you going to just grit your teeth in a lousy situation? Are you going to leave? Or are you, first, going to try to do what you can to fix it?

Trying to fix it first is, IMHO, the right thing, for several reasons. It's right morally. You're trying to do good to the people around you. It's right in pragmatic terms, too, because it may work, and if it doesn't, you can still leave. And it's right just in "leave your options open" terms, because it adds one to the list of options.

> Are you going to leave? Or are you, first, going to try to do what you can to fix it

Oh I'm very much in favor of making a reasonable attempt to fix the situation. Where we differ, I think, is what that reasonable approach is.

What parent suggests is akin to feeding your kids sweets to prevent them from throwing a tantrum. I'd go for 1) look for another position to cover for worst case 2) keep raising concerns in a professional way, but do as told, while documenting clearly who is responsible for the bad decision. 3) when speaking criticism about the manager to others, speak about the decision, not the person - let them figure out who's responsible by themselves. speak in terms the business people understand: retention rate, lost revenue, missed timelines, exploding budgets etc. - no bad manager ever got fired for "bad code" or "doing too much micromanaging"

> It's right morally. You're trying to do good to the people around you. It's right in pragmatic terms, too, because it may work, and if it doesn't, you can still leave.

Morals cannot prosper as a one way road though. "If you treat me as a resource, I'll treat you as a paycheck" is a proportionate response to this kind of situation. My higher-up is not at work to spread human values and love at the workplace, they are hired to make the business money. So am I. We both wouldn't be here but for the pay. They won't think twice to throw me under the bus if it helps them or the business. You talking about morals in the workplace seems like you never realized this circumstance.

tl;dr Imo the way to go in such a situation is either leave at the next opportunity or work to get rid of them (and be very careful not to endanger yourself in the process!)

No, I know they'll throw me under the bus at the drop of a hat. I'll leave them, too, for something better (which can also happen if they become worse). It's just that, while I'm there, I'll try to do what's good for the people around me, even if what they're doing isn't good for me. I'm still aware of what's going on, and I won't take it forever. But if I can fix the boss (or help his manager fix him, or help him fix himself), then sure, I'll try. I'll even try at some risk of my own job (because if it doesn't work, I was going to be out the door anyway).

The rest of what you said I agree with. That's about how I'd handle it.

About half the team share similar view. The other half seems like just playing along.

The “other half” is culturally fit for a large company.

I still care about the mission

Missions require full commitment.

Then by the will of higher ups some teams got drastically reorged and I ended up in a different team with a new manager.

That’s the nature of change.

Good luck.

This comment is unusually incisive. I don't know @brudgers, but I feel comfortable guessing they've done some high-stakes stuff in the world. OP, I'd just say I only wish I could put it as clearly as this person has.

I once worked in a Fortune 50 corporation.

Briefly, unhappily, and twenty years of figuring out why ago.

Quit and find another job. It is not worth it.

I have been in this environment for a good 5 years now. And I found myself in such positions before too. Tip: Don't run away from these problems because you only run into them again.

Communication is key. I have communicated "feelings" in various ways and gestures. Micromanagement? Respond with sarcastic comment "wow so specific, good thing I left my brain at home today". Lack of vision? Respond with "after a few runs in circles trying to find our way, we will eventually get there ... eventually".

Next, master a little bit of psych. "other half seems like playing along" tells me they are fawning while the first half are either freeze, fight, or flight but mostly freeze response also known as deer-headlight response. This person might have insecurity issues. This person might be distracted with grandeur of rank. The best way to work with them is come up with a few praises to keep them calm (like how Trump's people keep him calm).

Third, let go of your ideas and ambitions and "leave your brain at home". This manager might be dimwitted but eventually the person will get smarter and you will get a first row seat to this adventure.

Fourth, find power plays to make this person behave better.

Five, and this is the most important ... be LOYAL and let this person know you have their back. Let them know that each personal advantage of yours will be used to support the team. When you see something wrong, whisper to them and let them know.

But if this person is family, and/or this person takes advantage of you, then none of my tips work because it only works on people who want to maintain their reputation. The person I work with wants to impress me and gets anxiety attacks when I know the person lacks a few skills.

This is possibly the most dysfunctional, toxic, nihilistic, and Machiavellian advice regarding the topic of "How to Deal with a Bad Manager?", or any related topic therein, I have ever encountered.

I do not author this lightly and hope by doing so it provides an impetus for introspection.

Do with this intervention what you wish.

EDIT:

I do not know you nor your situation, work or otherwise.

What I do know is pain.

The post to which I responded has many pain indicators, or at least that is what I see when reading it. Perhaps I am just projecting though.

In the event I am not experiencing a form of projection, here is what I would like to share:

  1) Holding onto pain only embeds it further
     into one's life.

  2) "Retribution" does not alleviate one's
     own pain, but instead increases it.

  3) Codependency can be toxic and addictive.

  4) Most importantly: happiness is a choice.

The last one can be both the most obvious and most difficult to internalize.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I have the full understanding of your perception on this. And judging by the number of downvotes I got, your sentiment seems to be shared among others.

My advice is very different from “run”, assuming running is not an option. I want you to imagine a person who has never had too many opportunities in their life, and works in a downtrodden environment. And does not have the qualities to work somewhere better. Now this same person has wife and kids. The only thoughts that come from this is hopelessness.

In this hopelessness, minute incremental improvements is a huge world of difference. Communication, even snarkiness, will shake things. Praise will keep situations cool. Providing Safety will keep your opportunities open. I fundamentally believe that these three things at least will allow for improvements in the person.

As for your points, suffering through pain (coming from a superior or subordinate, or the environment) will make it worse, either hardening the heart or tearing it down. That is where mastering the psychology of the oppressor comes in. Knowing who you work with helps to cope with the pressure. Think of it as knowing the bully so you won’t get bullied. Retribution is not the intention, just communication. Communicate the full problem no matter how difficult it may be. And if the problem is with the person themselves, make it humorous. Codependency makes two people similar in nature. This would be the opposite of improvement.

On reflecting on my comment, I think it was a bit rushed and did not go fully in depth. It sounds very difficult to grasp. I apologize to everyone. If I could delete it I would.

> Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I have the full understanding of your perception on this. And judging by the number of downvotes I got, your sentiment seems to be shared among others.

IMHO, don't worry about the downvotes, but instead take joy in our opportunity to have this discussion. Again, just my $0.02 and all that. :-)

> My advice is very different from “run”, assuming running is not an option. I want you to imagine a person who has never had too many opportunities in their life, and works in a downtrodden environment. And does not have the qualities to work somewhere better. Now this same person has wife and kids. The only thoughts that come from this is hopelessness.

My mentor lived this experience for most of his career. He had a wife and child, so chose income stability over optimal work environment for reasons I am sure you can relate. It made me sad the things he had to put up with, but I understand why he did.

Ultimately, he achieved his goal of providing for his family. However, the personal cost was high.

> On reflecting on my comment, I think it was a bit rushed and did not go fully in depth. It sounds very difficult to grasp. I apologize to everyone. If I could delete it I would.

Again, IMHO, sharing your thoughts/situation honestly is the important thing, even if others (myself included) do not agree with how it was worded. If we do not get conflict/pain off of our chest, out of our system, it can build up in our psyche much like a cut can become infected.

If anyone needs to apologize, it is me for having initially replied in such an aggressive manner. I hope you accept my apology for having done so.

EDIT:

Clarified the phrasing of "do not agree with same" to be "do not agree with how it was worded".

I'm not sure how far along you are in your career, so maybe you are just realizing this: Most managers are bad at what they do. It's probably an 80/20 split of net-negative to net-positive managers. e.g. Everything speeds up when they go on vacation, or get sick.

The 80% of bad managers thrive in the ambiguity of their performance. They want to touch processes, and projects, and meetings and schedules, and things, to get their fingerprints on as much stuff as possible, without making a change substantive enough that it could make things noticeably worse. That way they can say they had an effect, but without the risk of a change that could backfire.

If you and a bunch of coworkers politely ask to transfer teams (not all at once), but spread out over a few weeks. Management will usually scramble to figure out which of their changes was actually impactful in the wrong way. Your boss doesn't know what he's doing, upper management doesn't either. They just want the big salary, and the diffuse responsibility.

Put yourself in their shoes: You're in charge of a team, you can't even really tell how it's going because it's just beyond your skillset, and now there are a bunch of people who don't like working on the team. Or the guy above him: You moved things around, and now it turns out one of your managers totally dropped the ball on the new team, and now you have to do extra work to retain and move people. Contact with reality is brutal.

I am a long way into my career and I don’t believe this to be true.

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