Munich from a Hamburger's perspective
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I think in the end it comes down to whether you like mountains more than harbors. ;-)
Hamburg has its own charme with the harbor and the surrounding history of sailors, trade, red light districts, very old factories etc.
Munich is much more polished but also kind of crammed. Cars everywhere, lots of traffic in the streets, yes, parks also, but... it's different.
I like both cities and also beer from both cities. If you're not from Germany and decide to come over: Visit both of them and enjoy their uniqueness.
But dirty? I have literally never heard anyone say that. If you think Munich is dirty you must be from Singapore or Japan and never visited any other city on the planet.
Feels like going to a natural history museum and just seeing reproductions. Educational but not "real"
That's a lie. Berlin's slogan is "We are the Dogshit Capital of Europe".
Same with Amsterdam - Ive met several women in last 20+ years who said (somehow proudly) that they visited Amsterdam Red Light District.
Let me guess: You have never heard a womean talking about what she thinks about prostitution and "red light districts" if she can openly admid?
Hint: 99.999% see it as body-slavery.
I'm really very surprised by some of the observations being made here, just because they are very contrary to my experience. Thoughts in no particular order:
- Hamburg's road systems took some inspiration from those of LA. To me Hamburg seemed exceptionally road/car heavy. Munich in comparison seems much more sane and European.
- The startup scene is great. I'm a member of the Werk1 co-working space there, and it is a huge and friendly community.
- Munich drivers are really great with cyclists. I eBike everywhere, and never have a had any problems with a car endangering me. They are exceptionally good at giving way to anyone in the cycle lines (bike, eBike, or scooter)
- For me it is a really very clean city.
- The English Garden (bigger the Manhattan’s Central Park) is a place of absolute magic in the summer. Floating down the river through a forest in the middle of the city?! Amazing.
- People are indeed super friendly when you talk to them. They don't do much needless smiling, but they are warm and friendly. (I'm white and look fairly presentable, and I cannot rule out that being a factor)
- You drive to the Alps in 1h ish. True, you cannot see them from them from the city. But it not much time you can be at the top of a ski resort.
- I think the comparison to Austin TX is very fair. Bavaria is conservative, Munich is not.
- The U-Bahn is pretty reliable, the S-Bahn less so. I cycle or e-scooter everywhere, so don't really notice (and even when it rains it really isn't that bad, said as a Londoner).
- I think there is more of a culture of having a stable job at large companies, perhaps in Germany in general (vs the UK). And I can see Munich feeling like 'a place people come to work' if you hang out in those groups. But I think there is is more available than just that.
In which sector are you?
That's an interesting perspective. I've been living in Hamburg for more than 10 years and visited Munich many times in the past 5 years or so for work, and my observation was always the opposite (and similar to the article's author).
I never felt the need to get a driver's license while living in Hamburg, given the broad coverage of the U-/S-Bahn network. It goes _really_ far. And most of the people I know who have cars usually prefer to commute by train and save the drive for weekends or evening events.
I've entertained the idea of moving to Munich for many, many times, and one of the deterrents for me always was that I found Munich to be too much of a car-oriented city; U-Bahn/Tram coverage seemed limited to a more central area where rents were quite high. Farther away, where most of my friends live, is covered by buses or S-Bahn with long, long journeys. And that's it, it's either a long commute on trains that look a bit old, or having a nice drive.
It does look like rent prices are not as high in that central area as they're used to be, which sounds nice, because living in the nice area with good public transit coverage looks lovely.
I live very central, 5th floor and can see them regularly when weather permits
One thing I really like about living in southwestern Germany is that I can hop onto a train at my local station at around 6am, and - after changing trains 1 time - get out in Milano Centrale at around 11am (until quite recently, there was even a direct train). From Milano Centrale, it's 2 hours to Venice or the Italian Riviera.
Paris is a 3 hour TGV trip from here. London is 5 hours, plus 1 hour transfer and checking into the Eurostar train at Paris Gare du Nord.
Milan, Paris, and London are all quicker to reach by train from here than Berlin.
As for inner-German train transport being slow... it's thanks to a bunch of reasons, like
a) Germany having been divided in two until 30 years ago, so railways to Berlin have not been the top priority. in fact, one didn't really want to give russians, whose army mainly used railway to transport, the infrastructure to invade west Germany.
b) the German car industry is running the country and ofc they want people to drive and not use DB, so investments went/are going into the Autobahnen instead of the railways.
c) Germany both being multi-centered and shaped like a square. France has the Paris star, UK has London, and Italy is multi centered but it has this elongated shape, so south of the Po valley the high speed railroads (roughly) follow the coastlines.
there is a part of the track above Frankfurt, which has only two(!) tracks, but this cross is passed by 80% of the cargo transport between south and north :-D (plus regular passenger transport on top!)
("German engineering applied" ;-)
Now if the getting all the train connections wasn't like going to the casino playing roulette.
The only thing that really helped to covercome these century old - was ironically the Conscription for the Bundeswehr in the cold war, intentionally mixing recruits allover germany and binding groups of friends together. That is now absent for a while- but the Ruhrpott and hamburg have missmanaged germany for quite a while now - and it shows, as subtle cracks of doubt in the superiority surface.
Cumex and Wirecard showed that elite as the lame ducks without a plan they really are.
PS: This explicitly ignores the Neo-prussians of berlin and the insults they throw at everything outside in the "incest-villages" as they call the rest of germany.
People from Munich REALLY celebrate that they are from Munich and from kindergarten onwards a sense of snobility is distilled into your soul.
"Helles" 0.5l+ is the only allowed beer and you have to meet a "Trachten" quota (traditional clothing). The Lederhosn has to come out at least 5x per year and dear god if it is a cheap model below 300€ which is already considered trash.
Stopped Strauss! and the likes comes to mind. Anyone from the south, no matter how quiet and timid (Stoiber/etc.) - or how brutish and hawkish (strauss) - can not be chancellor of germany- the cultivated guards of civilization forbid it.
Even if they turn out to be wrong entirely- results in support for anti-western terrorists, economic support for imperialist land-empires and having a nuke right now is what half of europe has on the shopping list. There is never a moment of reflection- the north is just that more advanced in culture.
The real reason is just the same thinly veiled racism- northern Italy has for southern Italy. Nobody in the south believes that any candidate they post, could ever make it.
Well, the thing is: 0.5L is considered to be too much today for most, lots of locations are switching to 0.33 longneck bottles (esp. the ones with younger folks, also you can price it cheaper)
Regarding trachten quote: Do you have a link here?
(My personal theory is that it’s just too rich and developed; you need cheap ‘edgy’ areas to support the people and business ideas that make places more interesting. Plus Bavarian culture is [in a nutshell] basically Catholic Churches and beer houses/gardens, so not hugely varied.)
As someone hailing from Cologne but with lots of friends in Munich, I tend to agree. Maybe it's the "Ruhrpott" dysfunction you're used to when you grew up in this part of Germany, but Munich always felt like a giant Apple Store, Hamburg does too but with a Protestant/Nordic spin instead of the posh Catholic south.
I think also another factor is that Munich is monocentric, the urban core absorbed districts very quickly (most people wouldn't know it these days but Bavaria used to be very underdeveloped for a long time) whereas the Ruhr area or Berlin are much more decentralized urban agglomerations, growing over a longer time, making it a bit more chaotic and sprawlish and economically hit or miss.
Except for housing, I did not find it particularly expensive. I ate out at very nice places for less than 10€ a lot of times, ice creams were amazing and cheap, too. At least compared to Spain, I did not noticed a big difference, taking into account the wealth of the city.
I pay about 1k and live with roommates, and a high end salary here gets crushed to almost half after taxes and whatnot.
Could this varying perception be age, cohort, interest related?
Young me would recoil at current me's sense of culture and preferences.
I have traveled all over Europe, just about everywhere, and my favorite cities are consistently in the old Habsburg Realm.
I don't know why but that's what they all have in common.
I have been to Vienna, and it’s an amazing city, despite some of its awful rulers.
> I know German history and how divided the country used to be, so it shouldn’t be a surprise to see these differences.
The author is not talking about Germany post-WW2, but pre-1870, where Germany was divided into 39 independent states (if we include the Austrian Empire), at least in the 19th century. Before that, the number was likely higher.
German history is a lot longer than the past century.
> There are also clear religious differences. Both cities were Catholic until the 16th century, but during the Reformation, Hamburg became Protestant.
Etc.
At this point not getting it seems willful.
The 39 independent states is only correct for a few years in the 19th century. Summarizing the changes in number of states of the German confederation since 1815:
1815: 39 (German Confederation founded)
1817: 40 (Hesse-Homburg admitted)
1839: 41 (Limburg added)
1850: 39 (Prussia annexes two Hohenzollern duchies)
1853: 38 (Anhalt-Köthen merged)
1863: 37 (Anhalt-Bernburg merged)
1866: 36 (Confederation collapses; Prussia absorbs Hanover etc.)
1867: 26 (22 in North Confederation + 4 southern kingdoms)
1871: German Empire formed, states are no longer independentWish they would remember that more, but the prevailing attitude seems to be that Germany started existing in 1945 after some idiot in a previous country in the same place decided it would be a good idea to industrialise mass murder.
People educated here really believe this somehow :-X
Too bad that Google, Apple, Intel now have offices here. This drives the rents up. Gentrification already killed the gay quarter. All luxury appartments and people now start complaining that the vibes of the quarter are gone. Who would have thought...
it is one of the last cool places in that area, sadly it has been gentrified over the last 20 years.
Haxnbauer, however, has and always will be a tourist trap, even now that there are 2 of them. New haxenbauer in the original haxenbauer place and original haxenbauer in a new place, about 200m further.
For anyone else wanting a good experience and good food (and being able to pay with card) i always recommend:
Wirtshaus in der Au
Xavers
(taste their spare ribs, if you are there, you will never forget them!)
Why German economic growth has stalled, in a nutshell.
For example, Boston has way more championships in US "big four" sports than every US city except NYC, but there are 24 larger cities in the country. There are just a ton of factors at play (pun intended).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_by_number_...
If you compare HSV to Hertha, Koln, Eintracht, Schalke, Werder and others HSV looks fairly normal.
Perhaps in a league if one team succeeds and builds solid foundations it has a tendency to keep ahead. Added to that in Germany it's so much harder for outside money to come in and build a team. Leipzig have done it, but just look at how fans think of them.
If you look at in England, without the external money teams of Manchester City and Chelsea a few big teams that have been dominating for decades would have continued their run. Admittedly there it would have been a big three of Arsenal, Liverpool and Manchester United though.
One of the German managers was from East Germany, and was very much a "Northern German."
We used to bait him, by talking about Bavarian stereotypes, like steins and lederhosen.
He'd get cranky, and start going on about how "We're Northern Germans..."
Hamburg is a pretty industrial city, and was firebombed flat, in WWII, so most of the architecture is relatively new (like Tokyo).
Lübeck was really cool. The company we worked with, started in a 1,000-year-old building.
Hamburg and Munich are like San Francisco and Houston.
Sure, Munich is more progressive than the rest of Bavaria, but it's still in Bavaria.
In the golden 70s Munich was a melting pot for musicians, gay people, Hippies. They still have the nudist beach in the city centre. Try to find something like that in the US.
I was born and raised in Hamburg and lived there or in adjacent parts most of my life. I also visited Munich quite a few times due to a long distance relationship and I would disagree that Hamburg is more conservative. tThe people in Munich vote for conservative parties at a greater rate than the people in Hamburg and Munich never felt even remotely as multi-cultural as Hamburg. I distinctly remember walking around München for the first time and being surprised by people’s reactions to seeing a black guy walking down the street. Some people would literally stop walking and stare. Almost no Middle Eastern people either in comparison. There is also a pretty strong divide between the north being much less religious. And one might argue that the people who are Christians are more often Protestant in the north which is arguably more progressive than the catholics in the south. If you look at Hamburg during may 1st, consider the Rote Flora building and the Schanzenviertel I think it’s quite clear that Hamburg has a pretty firmly established left-wing community. Granted if you go to Blankenese or the Neue Hafencity (areas for and of the wealthy) and talk to the people living there you might get a different picture. Anyways talking in averages I am not convinced your statement holds true today.
I think there is sort of a cultural rivalry where people from the north don’t want to get confused with the people from the south of Germany and vice versa. We make fun of their way they butcher the language and their festivities and traditional attire, and how they talk too much, and they make fun of us for being tight lipped humorless pricks.
best regards from California
Munich is notorious on that (among Europe only).
For locals though? Speaking as one (who fled a year ago to nearby Landshut and still has to commute)... if you think about moving here, please don't:
- public transport is way too overcrowded, no matter what type of it, and forget about commute by car unless you are rich enough to pay someone to drive for you
- The rents are frankly insane, and fucking Bavarian wannabe-chieftain Söder keeps inviting one big company after another to Munich (instead of, say, Nuremberg for a change) while doing everything he can to avoid and hinder helping Munich alleviate the housing cost crisis.
- Munich's police are rabid if you're not white. Particularly the Central Station is not a good thing to "live while Black" (or dressed like a hippie or alternative), you'll get hounded by them because they can and will suspect you being a drug dealer, although the situation has relaxed a bit ever since cannabis got legalized federally a year ago.
- did I already mention the insane lack of housing? Seriously: prepare to either pay through your nose for short-term accomodation or couchsurfing, unless you are employed at one of the tech giants or rich enough to buy a place in cash you will likely spend a year or two until you have housing. If you are a student, that applies even more.
- a lot of Munich's infrastructure dates back to the money spigot times of the Olympic Games 1972 - and is subsequently shut down for repairs all the time because there hasn't been much invested in maintenance over the decades.
- Oktoberfest, Bauma (the construction trade fair) and the regular Champions League soccer games grind the entire city to a standstill. If you can help it, DO NOT move to any area close to the Theresienwiese (people WILL piss and even shit on your porch, I speak from personal experience) and to the Sechzger-Stadion in Giesing (in addition to the noise, 1860 fans are violent hothead hools that lead to massive disruptions for traffic every time that sorry excuse for a football club has a game).
Companies go where the workforce already is. No company will waste their time to convince workforce to move to a smaller and cheaper town just for them, and workers won't move to a smaller and cheaper town just for one employer in case it doesn't work out and need to job hop quickly.
First there is quite some money put into public transportation which is great.
Second, it has to be modernized all the time to accommodate for the growing passenger numbers and city growth.
Last but not least, for a long time there was no investment done into public transportation in Munich, so now they have to do more to keep up.
I like it and I would not like to live in a city which doesn’t invest in its public transportation system.
Yeah everything goes into the 2. Stammstrecke, the rest is left to rot in pieces.
I’d add that riding a bike is also quite stressful at times.
And yet I routinely see morons here and on r/de + r/Munich advocate to build even more housing for people in Munich... I mean, obviously, more housing is good, but as there is no way to meaningfully expand the capacity of public transport it's frankly useless.
The problem is, Munich got lots of new real estate around the city, but especially the public transport system wasn't expanded anywhere near close enough to what's needed. There hasn't been an actual new rail laid for the S-Bahn or the regional trains in decades (in fact, if you go to Mühldorf near Munich, the railway dispatch tech dates back to the era of the Kaiser, so even before Hitler and the Weimar Republic), the U-Bahn hasn't seen meaningful expansion in the core grid as well (only the leaves were expanded, in the late 90s to Messestadt, in the late 00s to Moosach).
And now, the road and public transport networks are at capacity. Munich physically cannot support more people moving here.
Source: my daily driver for the last 7 years has been a Nihola and now a HNF Nicola (hey, hamburg!) and drivers rarely come close.
I think people should appreciate more the good places they are living in, instead of trying to find something to complain in every single aspect of their lives
Well, the winter storm of two years ago [0] when there wasn't a single tram running for days should be an example... there hasn't been any investment in resiliency for decades. Only one tram car [1], a 1950s catenary service vehicle [2], was able to run, there was nothing else that was heavy enough.
And even when there is no weather extremes, the S-Bahn is at record levels of unreliability [3]. Particularly the older people remember how reliable public transport used to be. It hasn't even come close to growing with the city, and that's why people are rightfully pissed.
[0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wintereinbruch_in_S%C3%BCddeut...
[1] https://www.tramreport.de/2023/12/08/mvg-schneechaos-2023-1/
[2] https://www.trambahn.de/atw2942
[3] https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/s-bahn-muenchen-2024-er...
I live there and I know this to be true, but I don't get it. I personally know tech companies that can't hire in Munich because they can't find apartments for their hirees to live in.
All that Söder wants is photo ops with famous people, the famouser the better. And if that's not given, at least a single photo of #Söderisst a day is a minimum.
Söder isn't interested in actual politics, he's a showman. He's not willing, I'd say even unable, to deal with the consequences of his actions.
Ze Wurstlingers are certainly not what they used to be. Practice!
Sadly, I was disappointed.
Those are the only three I could think of, tricky to put together a search query to find more.
Türkiye's just a spoilsport in this game.