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Comment by pogue | Hacker News Reader

I've seen probiotic supplements that have strains that claim to help with anxiety and depression, but I've never really looked into them because I'm quite skeptical they do anything. But if anyone is familiar with them and has any feedback I'd be interested to hear it.

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This is only anecdotal, but probiotic supplements absolutely had a large impact on my social anxiety. I can't remember for the life of me where I heard it, but I specifically looked for ones that with strains were "dirt-based" - PB-8 is the one I currently take. Looking back, I realized just how directly getting anxious was tied to having an upset stomach for me. The first week or so was a bit rough, but after that it's been smooth sailing. The supplements are so cheap that I think it's worth trying for a bit. Kombucha/other fermented foods may also have a positive impact.

Caveat: I have never been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, so things may different in that case.

Was your anxiety caused by your upset stomach you think? Or was it unrelated?

There's this one person who claims to have found out that theses probiotics need to be amplified into a megadose, and subsequently they cured themselves from social anxiety. I'm not sure if there are other people who have replicated, but the initial report seems trustworthy. See https://pdfcoffee.com/experimental-treatment-for-social-phob...

That's very interesting. Making your own yogurt sounds like it could be easy to do and you could potentially just use OTC probiotic capsules or powder.

I posted some studies above about two probiotic strains that have specifically been studied for mood enhancement aka "psychobiotics": Lactobacillus helveticus Rosell-52 and Bifidobacterium longum Rosell-175.

I’ve seen people who seem to know what they’re talking about cast doubt that you could create your own probiotic yogurt in a typical kitchen since other strains are likely to dominate without a sterile environment and careful methods.

The strain you want has a huge headstart, and there shouldn't be much bacteria in boiled milk to begin with. Containers can be also sterilized with boiling water. Then keep it cool after it's done (14 hours). It doesn't seem likely that some other strain would dominate, but who knows.

Aside from the other red flags in that link, the author claims to be able to get rid of SAD symptoms in "about 45 minutes" which strongly suggests a placebo effect to me (or at least not an effect from changes in their microbiome).

Yeah, that's odd for sure.

I've had a LOT of gut problems in my life. I have a physically broken stomach, have had to have stomach surgery in the past, and probably will have to do it again soon.

Most probiotics I've taken did nothing. The only ones that seem to actually work for me are these: https://drohhiraprobiotics.com/

Not sure why it works, but anecdotally, they do.

Other things that have helped significantly – cutting out alcohol.

I'm not sure how many probiotics will make it through the stomach acid. One would think suppository would be vastly more effective: parachute directly onto the battlefield.

yeah I had serious gut problems for years and no probiotic ever did the slightest thing. Anecdotally I can’t differentiate them from snake oil.

But Metamucil changed my life dramatically over a span of a few weeks. Never had the type of symptoms it’s indicated for, which everyone I mention it to just assumes. But it fixed me somehow.

I was recently talking about fiber & fiber supplements on here in a thread about a new type of fiber that was shown in a study to help with weight loss.

Acetylated cellulose suppresses mass through commensals consuming carbohydrates https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44219171

Fermented foods are way more helpful IME. I've even found kombucha protective against mildly spoiled food.

I can also attest to having my first alcoholic drink in a while and it screwing me up for a week.

I've always been skeptical of probiotic supplements in general mostly because they are stored/shipped in unrefrigerated environments. I believe in most cases the bacteria would end up dead before you even ingested it. However, some companies have developed strains that can withstand some amount of heat. But you never know where they've been stored/for how long/etc.

I remember speaking to someone who had the suggestion to try fermenting food with probiotic supplements, as that would be the only realistic way to know if they were still alive.

There are vendors that do sell probiotic supplements that come shipped in dry ice that people with Crohn's disease & other GI ailments. I don't remember the name of the company that sold them though.

But, I agree that yogurt or saurkraut/kimchi and other fermented products would be a good way to get some gut bacteria. Those would be great to use after you came off antibiotics, but it wouldn't necessarily help with genital mental health/anxiety (as far as I'm aware).

Interestingly, yeast has neurotransmitters and neurotransmitter precursors in it such as tryptophan and serotonin. [1]

Having said all that, I decided to look up the "mood enhancing" probiotic strains I've seen being sold in OTC supplements. The two strains I see are Lactobacillus helveticus Rosell-52 and Bifidobacterium longum Rosell-175 (there may be others I'm unaware of). The studies are quite small, unfortunately. (I didn't read all of them though) [2] [3] [4] [5].

Finally, this is quite a unique term I haven't come across: Psychobiotics!

Psychobiotics are probiotics that have the characteristics of modulating central nervous system (CNS) functions or reconciled actions by the gut–brain axis (GBA) through neural, humoral and metabolic pathways to improve gastrointestinal activity as well as anxiolytic and even antidepressant abilities. [6]

[1] Melatonin and Other Tryptophan Metabolites Produced by Yeasts: Implications in Cardiovascular and Neurodegenerative Diseases https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4718080/

[2] Assessment of psychotropic-like properties of a probiotic formulation (Lactobacillus helveticus R0052 and Bifidobacterium longum R0175) in rats and human subjects https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20974015/

[3] Probiotics Promising for Mild to Moderate Depression https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/881877

[4] The effect of Lactobacillus helveticus fermented milk on sleep and health perception in elderly subjects https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17851460/

[5] One Giant Leap from Mouse to Man: The Microbiota–Gut–Brain Axis in Mood Disorders and Translational Challenges Moving towards Human Clinical Trials https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8840472/

[6] Exploring the Potential of Lactobacillus helveticus R0052 and Bifidobacterium longum R0175 as Promising Psychobiotics Using SHIME https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10056475/

> I've always been skeptical of probiotic supplements in general mostly because they are stored/shipped in unrefrigerated environments. I believe in most cases the bacteria would end up dead before you even ingested it. However, some companies have developed strains that can withstand some amount of heat. But you never know where they've been stored/for how long/etc.

Probiotics in pill/capsule form are generally freeze dried, so they are much less temperature sensitive than live bacteria.

One doctor recommended this brand to me too not long ago, but I'm a bit worried that this probiotic contains histamine-producing bacteria since I have some histamine sensitivity.

And overall I'm a bit hesitant about consuming too many strains at once.

So far I've been having success with S. boulardii CNCM I-745 (which is actually a probiotic yeast) and I'm trying out L. rhamnosus GG.

Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 also looks interesting.

After trying a lot of things what worked for me was cutting out negative food; usually gluten, lactose, fructose. Probiotics never did anything for me.

What makes gluten a negative food? (outside of being coeliac)

Nothing specific, simply your own stomach. Every human is different. Some people can eat spicy foods, some people can't. Best strategy is to learn for yourself what make you happy when you wake up and what makes you feel bad. Listen to your own body, make changes.

Thanks for clarifying. I agree with your answer. Do what works for you!

Since the advent of "gluten free" foods, specifically for coeliacs, the fact foods get advertised as "X free" leads a percentage of the population to believe that X is therefore bad and should be avoided for as-a-general-rule health reasons rather than health reasons limited to those who get complications as a result of X.

Whether or not the effect in the paper turns out to be true and reproducible, the supplements you've seen almost certainly don't do anything unless you're wiping out your established gut microbiota with antibiotics first. Your existing microbiota are entrenched and in a very good position to defend themselves from any weakened intruders you might intentionally introduce. Meanwhile, supplement companies really like to make exaggerated claims.

I posted some links to papers I came across here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44284165

It's a very fair and valid question as to whether a probiotic supplement:

A) Survives being packaged and stored in a warehouse for an indeterminate amount of time B) Being shipped in the back of a truck/airplane C) If the bacteria is still alive whether it can make it through the GI tract to even have any effect whatsoever

I don't know whether this has been studied. I know Consumer Labs does yearly tests on various supplements, probiotics included, but it's a subscription service and you need to subscribe to see the results. I have subscribed to them in the past and found their testing and articles quite helpful. I

In their tests, ConsumerLab found that the number of viable cells in probiotic products ranged from 1 million to 225 billion per recommended serving.

Additionally, some products were contaminated with harmful bacteria, such as Pseudomonas aeruginosa, which poses a risk to immunocompromised individuals and infants.

The company also noted that the enteric coating of some products did not function properly, potentially affecting the delivery of the probiotics to the gut. (Brave AI Search summary of the article below) [1]

ConsumerLab Tests Reveal Best Probiotic Supplements and Those With Quality Issues https://www.consumerlab.com/news/best-probiotic-supplements/...

> Whether or not the effect in the paper turns out to be true and reproducible, the supplements you've seen almost certainly don't do anything unless you're wiping out your established gut microbiota with antibiotics first. Your existing microbiota are entrenched and in a very good position to defend themselves from any weakened intruders you might intentionally introduce.

There is an ton of probiotic research that shows probiotics can survive transit to the gut and reproduce there.

Even without probiotic supplmentaion, you microbiome absolutely can and will change over time.

Strongly second this ask.

So long as it isn’t eating the variety of fresh fruits and vegetables that produce gut serotonin in the microbial breakdown of complex carbohydrates and fiber, right?

Eating fresh fruits and veggies is a great general health advice but unlikely to shift your gut microbiome meaningfully (unless you are eating some specific fruits or fruit skins in specific conditions).

And randomly eating healthy stuff is probably not going to shift your biome in a particular direction nor eliminate the cause of biome issues.

I eat healthy including a lot of whole fruit, nuts, dried fruits, dark green veggies and grass finished meats and there are still times I have my biome be a bit off.

“Unlikely”, “randomly”, and “probably” had me nervous about your contribution to this discussion.

I do appreciate the quantitative precision at the end of your last sentence.

Why wouldn’t it be? Do you know which ones exhibit the desired characteristic?

The ones that aren’t food shaped name brand products or fruit colored sugar water.

I’m fairly certain that is not accurate given I was vegetarian for over a decade.

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