Ask HN: What was your path toward expat? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: What was your path toward expat?

16 pointscamhayes46 comments

I'm an American software engineer, but currently looking at graduate school in Europe. I'm about 18 months out from when I could reasonably start school. I've been hoping to find a pathway toward residence in one of the countries where those schools are before then. My hope is this would give me time to lay some foundations to make the grad school journey a bit easier (established living situation, EU financial foundation, better understanding of the language, etc.)

For any expats, I was curious what your pathway was to getting overseas? While I am EU Blue Card eligible, the straightforward method of applying to companies abroad hasn't netted any results, and I wonder if I'm missing any opportunities.

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Sorry, English isn’t my native language, but do you want to start studying again in EU? In that case, you can apply for an education VISA. I don’t know what is a blue card, but I’d suggest looking at the country you want specifically rather than looking at Europe as a whole. The procedures will be similar between EU countries but in the end, you’re going to be talking to one specific embassy in America. Each countries have different levels of strictness.

My goal is to study in EU (particularly Germany or France), but to first try to find employment there. Where I am having difficulty is finding a reliable method for setting up interviews with German/French software companies, and I was hoping for advice on what others may have done to succeed in that.

Why do you want to find employment first? I don’t mean to tell you to change course but curious if going to a school first wouldn’t be a better option.

I can’t prove it but I think that it’ll be hard getting a job here without speaking the language unless you’re extra qualified. At least, that’s my perspective in France but I might be 100% wrong since I actually never held an office job here.

Not sure about Germany, but I would say that they speak better English than us French on average so that’s where I would try my luck first if I was you.

… except that German will be useless if you ever want to transition to Spain / Italy. Learning French would allow you to learn Spanish or Italian fast, but German wont.

(This message is definitely a nothing burger concerning finding employment, but I hope it gave you some ideas to consider)

Immigrant. That’s the term. I’m also an immigrant. There’s no shame on using the term.

Expat has a more specific connotation than immigrant. It is not a synonym.

He's looking to gain permanent residency, that's an immigrant. Nothing different lmao

No, it is not the same. One can be an immigrant and not a expatriate.

it is lmao, you are just quibbling over technicalities. He is an immigrant because he is looking to stay in that country permanently and not temporarily.

Not permanently

> quibbling over technicalities

That is this entire thread, including the OP, with whom you seem to agree. Why have you not complained to tkiolp4 that they are just quibbling over technicalities? To be frank, I rather suspect it's because "quibbling over technicalities" is something that does not concern you, except as it can be a convenient excuse to dismiss an argument you don't want to engage with intellectually.

Not permanent residency

Depending on the circle, the connotation can be fairly negative. It's a term I have stopped using because it tends to separate people along ethnic or economic lines, even when they're in a country for exactly the same reasons.

In English, immigrant means “a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country,” while expatriate means “a person who lives outside their native country.”

You might dislike how rich British bankers in Hong Kong are called expats, while poor Eritrean refugees in Britain are called immigrants. But technically, those usages are accurate.

Still, expatriate often carries the connotation of a higher-status person living in a lower- or similar-status country—like a British banker in Hong Kong. It doesn’t quite fit when someone of middle status moves laterally—say, an American recent graduate relocating to Europe. Migrant is denotatively correct, but the connotation doesn't quite match because in practice it used for low status or irregular immigrants.

In many such cases, it may be best to avoid using any of these terms at all. Temporary residence might be the term we’re looking for and it likely reflects the legal status as well.

He's looking to gain residency, he's looking to immigrate. Stop quibbling over terminology

Keep arguing with the dictionary.

no one's arguing lmao.

My Qualifications: I moved to Germany for 7 years

I can only add my voice to what others have said: Just apply to universities and get your student visa.

In general it is very difficult applying to jobs in countries from abroad, and in many countries they have laws requiring that companies must prove that they couldn't source talent locally first.

Meanwhile student visas are very easy to get, and after you are in the country on a student visa, you can seek part time work, or get a job as soon as you graduate. Many countries offer fast-track residence permits for expats who have graduated from one of their universities.

My story: I applied to a german university, got accepted, and got the student visa relatively painlessly. After graduating I found a job relatively quickly and got a work permit.

I have some more tips, specifically pertaining to Germany and your requirements:

> Language: In Germany you can get around no problem with 0 German. Me personally I downloaded Duolinguo the day before my flight and I did just fine learning as I went.

> EU financial foundation: I'd say you can just build a US financial foundation then send it over via bank transfer when u arrive.

> Established living situation: If you get accepted to a german university, try to show up at least a month before courses start. Take that time to open a bank account, get insurance, enrol and find an apartment. Do NOT try to find a rental when you don't have boots on the ground, there are a bunch of scams that target international students trying to secure accomodation. For your first month or so, just stay in an airbnb until you find a place you like long-term

Did you experience a lot of cash loss in moving your finances over? I’ve been concerned about losing too much to fees, which is in part why I’ve hoped to set a bit of a financial bedrock before trying to start school.

> For any expats, I was curious what your pathway was to getting overseas?

So... any expats? Or Americans moving overseas? Or people from the USA moving to EU countries? These will be wildly different scenarios.

For me it was signing a work contract in Switzerland and moving there from an EU country. The path to get that job was by finishing a good uni and having some work experience already while studying. Not sure this helps you much...

I think you got it reversed. Most people go to Europe (or most first world really) FIRST as a student, get an understanding of the place + connection + trust and THEN apply for job. It's good I think that you want to be prepared for the study, but usually programs that welcomes international students don't strictly require that and instead offer it too, as part of study

Applying for job out of the blue is notoriously hard, even with right qualifications (IT for example) at right time (not recession). Even my EU citizen friend struggled finding job in London (pre-brexit), another got a "work-application visa" in Netherlands, and didn't find anything for a year, even with a degree from an EU university. She got an offer too late, by contact in her previous residence, so still it was through networking.

You can still ofc find jobs. There are forums, job boards, events to connect with people. But for Europe, unlike US you're well protected as a worker. This makes hiring more risky and employer a bit more cautious, which means you're extra disadvantaged as a guy applying from abroad, because they can't gauge trust. Networking (knowing right people, have the right degree/school/job on your resume) is still powerful in Europe.

As for my story: was (kind of?) expat in Japan for 5 years, although my mother is Japanese (but I'm born and raised in Europe) so being able to speak the language & understand culture put me in a native-expat middle ground. I found a job through an "IT Talent from abroad recruitment service". Many of my expat/migrant coworkers found job the same way, although they usually had PhD or Master degree to help their visa application.

Still, the biggest help to land a job was the language fluency + I had gone to an exchange program at one of their top 3 university (although only for 6 month, enough to land "trust points")

What do you mean by "graduate school" exactly, is that a Master's or a PhD? If it's the latter, in the Netherlands you get paid salary to do it and it's the easiest path to a work/residence visa. Keep in mind though that our housing market is abysmal.

Alternatively, if you really want to go via an employment, look into the companies that have permission to ask for a knowledge migrant visa: https://ind.nl/en/public-register-recognised-sponsors/public...

From Canada to Germany. I went for an internship in university, never came back. That was a decade ago.

As a student, the internship visa or student visa are great options. It's a lot easier because of all the help you get from university. There is a lot of infrastructure in place to welcome and integrate students.

I run a website about migrating to Germany: https://allaboutberlin.com

What do you mean with expat? You'd like to get an employer in the US that sends you to work in the EU on their behalf?

Expat to mean residence in a non-US country. So it would mean an offer from an EU-based company to either sponsor a residence visa or one that qualifies for Blue Card. Either way, an offer is needed in the EU.

Oh, I see, you'd like to immigrate to Europe. In that case, I'd suggest looking at the multiple options for immigrant visas, the rules for which vary country by country.

I believe, as others have stated, that the educational way is probably the most practical, as you can get a residency visa based on attending school (not necessarily a graduation, I know plenty of people that initially came to study the language, and that would qualify you for such visas), and subsequently after living there for a while follow the normal paths towards long-term residency.

As far as I'm aware, the Netherlands and Germany are destinations that have reasonably well-understood processes for immigration and a significant technical market. Both of these countries also have the advantage that you can mostly live your life in English – albeit you should of course strive to learn the local language if you intend to settle there.

For Germany specifically, there's been a recent reform in the laws which give you a very fast track even towards German citizenship, which then would allow you to live and work anywhere in the EU. On the other hand, the Netherlands seem to have a more digitalized bureaucracy, which can be practical: in Germany everything is still done by snail mail.

I've also heard good things about Switzerland, but there I have less personal experience. It is also not in the EU, for what it's worth.

That being said, I'd point out that from a technology market perspective, it's certainly more difficult to find employment at the moment than it was perhaps 10 years ago. This comes and goes in cycles, so I'm saying that so you don't get discouraged if it takes long and requires applying to hundreds of positions: that's the case even for us natives. There's geopolitical and macroeconomic reasons for that, interest rates, etc.

I wish you the best of luck!

P.S. Of course, if you're so inclined, you might want to be aware that Svalbard has no specific visa requirements for residence. You could conceptually move there tomorrow, as long as you're allowed to transit through Norway, which assuming you hold a US passport shouldn't be a problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard

However that place is certainly... not for everyone :-)

P.P.S. On a more serious note, and it's of course not the EU, but Australia has very friendly immigration paths and I personally know multiple people who were able to move there, quickly obtain work in technology, and two of them actually obtained Australian citizenship by now.

"expat" means "immigrant" but it's used by people who believe they are somehow above others

One country's immigrant is another country's emigrant.

No expat means expat and immigrant means immigrant. Immigrant implies that the intention is to settle in the host country, whereas expat implies that the reason for staying is temporary and hence the intention is not to stay permanently.

For example, if I am doing a PhD in France, with no intention of staying in France afterwards, wouldn't it be rather inaccurate to call myself an immigrant to France?

You are not an expat in the country you are currently in. You are an expat in the country you left.

If you're in a foreign country, you're either an immigrant (as a generic term) or, if you want to get pedantic, you can use whatever more apt definition they have (visitor, migrant worker, non-immigrant, etc).

You are an emigrant in the country you left.

Immigrants and expats are overlapping terms, but there are some differences in common usage. An immigrant may intend to stay in the host country permanently and make it their new home, while an expat just happens to live there for the moment, often for a specific purpose. Expats are often more privileged than immigrants. An immigrant may seek to integrate into the society and the culture, while expats are more likely to have a purely transactional relationship with the host country.

I agree with your characterization of expats as typically being more privileged, and the context you give.

That said, it is expat and emigrant that overlap, not immigrant and expat.

An expat is someone who has left his country, with varying degrees of permanence and volition. Eg: to be exiled is to be expatriated by force.

Absurd example: you could technically be an expat without immigrating (or visiting) any other country if you kept to international waters (or unclaimed space?).

The distinction between "expat" and "immigrant" is made by governments as well. Example: as someone who over time held multiple non-immigrant and dual-purpose visas, became an immigrant (permanent resident), then naturalized, I can tell you "expat" was nowhere to be found on the dozens of INS and USCIS forms I've had to fill out. It was never a status I could apply for or one I was given. On the other hand: the US embassy, and my home country's embassy, do offer me "expat services" where I currently live.

This is the distinction between permanent resident and temporary immigrant.

An immigrant is someone who moves to a country other than their own with the intention of residing there for a significant period (usually at least one year), regardless of their ultimate intention to stay permanently or leave later.

You can just look up the definition of the word immigrant.

bro created ana account just to respond lmao

Lol downvoted because you're right.

An "expat" is just a white economic migrant.

They'll try to spin it. They'll whip out irrelevant definitions. They'll invent arbitrary distinctions.

They are wrong.

"Economic migrant" has always, does now, and will always include "seek higher standard of living" in its context and definition and "well I just, you know, kinda vibe with the culture" and/or "I like, you know, just consider myself a global citizen and want to see the world" is "seek higher standard of living".

That's just not true. They mean different things.

This doesn't make much sense to me.. A company generally doesn't want an employee who is going to go to grad school in 18 months unless there is a lot of invested value or connection. Are US companies interested in talking to you after you state this goal?

You should not be applying to companies if you are interested in graduate school. You should be applying to graduate school to get a student visa. Then apply for companies near the end of your degree.

> pathway toward residence

so an immigrant?

expat is usually a temporary situation .

I don’t necessarily have plans to maintain residence after school

Immigrating to the EU is becoming increasingly difficult. Do you have any family connections or ancestry? That will be an easier route than grad school or a job.

Not at all. From a legal perspective it gets easier and easier. From a technical perspective too. The biggest hurdles in Germany are the housing market and the job market. Both favour locals.

Well, that’s not my experience at all, and it doesn’t line up with what’s actually happening politically.

With recent government shifts in Poland, Italy, France, Germany, etc. I think you can expect it to become more difficult to move to the EU. It already is becoming more difficult in many countries, and this is pretty obviously going to increase over the next 3-5 years.

I help people settle in Germany for a living. Legally speaking, the country is consistently lowering the bar for immigration, permanent residence and citizenship. Technically speaking, we're getting a lot better at informing and accommodating immigrants.

I'm aware of the political winds, but practically speaking, immigration is not getting harder.

Germany is the single most open country in the EU to immigrants, and even then the cultural and political winds are very obviously shifting. Everywhere else is the same: anti-immigration forces are ascendant both culturally and politically: the Netherlands, Poland, Italy, France, Sweden, etc.

As I said in my original comment, it is becoming more difficult. You’d have to be completely blind to politics to not understand this. Especially when anyone moving there now practically won’t get residency for 1-2 years if they started soon. Realistically if you begin the process this year, you’re going to be applying for permanent residency/ citizenship in 4-5 years under a government hostile to it.

Which is why I suggested using a family or ancestry route if possible. Because the process is most likely going to get more difficult soon, and already is in many places.

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