Hacker News Reader

Comment by trhway | Hacker News Reader

What i like about US is that compare to other countries (like for example Russia where i'm originally from) there is almost no lying and cheating here. Instead there is a respect of the law and an army of talented creative accountants and lawyers. Remember that stale "multi-used" sandwich served with the drink which by virtue of its existence converted drinking establishment into a food serving restaurant? Not being an accountant, i'd just speculate, out of sheer fantasy, that some hardware chip/gadget added to your software may similarly convert your software development into hardware/gadget one.

View on HN

I'm not sure I buy into this. Sure, compared with Russia it's probably a lot less, at least in terms of being something everyday people engage in. But in terms of comparing with countries like Germany or Sweden I don't know.

Here's some food for thought:

* Global financial crises: Banks were paying (bribing) ratings agencies to rate junk bonds AAA.

* Savings & loan crisis: widespread fraud & insider abuse.

* Bernie Madoff: Ran the largest Ponzi scheme ever, with an estimated fraud total of $65B raking in $17.5B in invested cash.

* Enron: straight up accounting fraud sprinkled with intentionally causing brownouts in California to pad their pockets with a side bonus of making Gov Davis unpopular & get him recalled (Enron was closely aligned with the Bush administration).

* Nixon straight up using psy-ops against Democrats & finally trying to burgal the DNC offices.

In terms of stats, the FBI does a few hundred bribery and corruption cases annually. Are they good at catching white collar crime? Well such crimes regularly take more than 5 years to investigate.

And hell, some things that are basically lying and cheating are straight up legal. Usury is legal with minimal to no regulation of payday loans. Pyramid schemes are legal as long as you call it multi-level marketing.

The list goes on and on.

If the list doesn't go on and on that is a clear sign that corruption is being hid.

Could be a sign that the commenter was not willing to spend all his day writing, especially once his point was made.

I can’t tell if they’re trying to refute the point (ie the list being long means that it’s definitionally not being hid) or support (ie the list I made is finite and therefore the corruption is hid).

But I think of it like trying to estimate the size of an iceberg by observing the tip. Just because you know a little bit doesn’t mean you actually know about the scale. And there’s every reason to believe it’s quite extensive given how easily money flows from corrupt countries through USD and US persons and companies (eg the major bank that’s constantly getting fined for laundering terrorist and drug cartel money - either they’re the only ones and they’re making a killing providing this service anyway or they’re the only ones anyone is bothering to investigate, but that business is clearly lucrative to continue to engage in).

There is corruption everywhere. If there is a short list that means that the truth is being hid, or your have way too much police (often both).

As you state, the size of the iceberg cannot be understood by what we can easially observe. While there is corruption in the US, it isn't really much worse than other places that are not known for corruption - though understand that the US has a lot higher population and so it might seem that way. (though often those other places are just hiding truth)

The US also sees a huge amount of wealth directly or indirectly flowing through it. I would say that’s the attraction for illegal activities, less the amount of people.

And I don’t know how small you think the list is, but I suspect it’s quite small because whether you get prosecuted from some corrupt act is pretty random since someone has to notice the corruption and try to investigate. Additionally the recent moves by SCOTUS is to significantly raise the bar for prosecuting corruption. So however you think America is fairing compared to other countries, I’d say America today is allowing once more, more institutionalized corruption than it had in the second half of the 20th century (and America’s history is filled with top-to-bottom corruption).

> What i like about US is that compare to other countries (like for example Russia where i'm originally from) there is almost no lying and cheating here. Instead there is a respect of the law and an army of talented creative accountants and lawyers

I thought you were being sarcastic here at first because, good lord, there is plenty of corruption here in the US (though those doing it used to care more about hiding it). The US, especially in its current state, is certainly not a place I'd describe with "almost no lying or cheating". I do understand that Russia is on another level, though, given the open assassinations and doing things like what was done to Navalny.

You forgot putting a dead guy on trial.

> I thought you were being sarcastic here at first because,

You've never been in Russia. There is no clear law abiding business there. That opens a lot of opportunities for those with some power. Corruption is one of them, selective punishment is another. I'm sure in most 3d world situation is not better, but they at least don't have laws to cheat and bribing isn't a crime.

You have no idea about corruption if you haven't lived it in a BRIC country.

The funny thing, is that people not from America say that there IS corruption, but at least it happens in the open. I think OP is saying the same.

>say that there IS corruption, but at least it happens in the open

How is that corruption?

Breaking the law is still breaking the law even if you don't hide it. If anything, not getting in trouble for breaking the law noticeably often means that there's also corruption from the ones who should be holding the corrupt accountable.

Breaking the law isn't "corruption"

A good definition from AI "Is when government officials misuse their power for personal gain or to benefit their friends or associates"

Right, which is illegal. Thus breaking the law. And remains both corruption and breaking the law even when it happens in the open.

Where in that definition does it say that it can’t be done in the open?

See for example Trump’s shenanigans, which are done in plain sight for all to see, but with few if any repercussions (a very brief selection: having foreign dignitaries stay at his hotel in DC while he’s in office; having the Secret Service stay at his resorts when he goes golfing; scamming the public with his family’s meme coins; etc)

Because this is SO much better..../s The only difference in style is that the American billionaire will corrupt everything and still say it is for your own good.

> almost no lying and cheating here

Are you living in an alternate world?

Or are cynical Americans living in an alternate world, blind to how much better the rule of law is here than most other countries? The commenter's comparison was to Russia. When was the last time Putin lost an election?

I'd say we're slightly behind western Europe as far as rule of law goes, not really sure about the advanced east (Japan, Korea), and miles ahead of just about everywhere else (eastern Europe, Russia, Africa, China, etc). Yes, even with Trump in office, though he really makes me worry.

I mean, the sitting President was shilling cars on the White House lawn and runs an active meme coin bribery slush fund.

This is not slightly behind Western Europe. This is miles behind any developed country. China may be corrupt, but Xi Jinping hasn’t yet sold beans or cars via press conference.

The rule of law gets down to nitty-gritty levels, too, not just a reality show at the highest altitudes: trust the police don't extort you, the ability to gain relief in court (small claims or civil), trust things you build won't be looted overnight, trust in your neighborhood to walk at night or leave something unlocked, trust in your bank to wire things, trust in your title companies, trust in your package deliveries, etc.

It's not perfect, but you could do so, so much worse.

"Could be much worse" is a platitude not an argument. "It is improving" might be, if it were true.

I often couch my arguments in soft language like a conversation would be in order to have a discussion. The idea that the US is miles behind developed nations is nonsense.

Depends. Would you still insist it's nonsense if any of these things you mentioned happened to you or your family?

Why are these alternatives? I believe it is true that the situation in the US is better than many other countries (not most), and also that "almost no corruption" is false.

Being better than others really isn't the only thing that matters.

If you pursue excellence, you compare yourself against the best, not the worst.

Then the russian fellow shouldn't have dared to compare USA to his country?

No, he's saying that people respect the law, which they do. It's all about finding loopholes, and sticking to the letter of the law while working around the law to do whatever the law prohibits but doing it in a way that remains legal. This entire situation came up because of loopholes. A great way to offshore money was to spend it on software developed by overseas subsidiaries.

If you’ve never lived outside the US you have zero idea how bad it gets. It literally is an alternate world.

The amount of daily activities in the US that just work 99.999999% of the time that would have a corruption aspect in some other countries is mind boggling.

The closest analogy I can come up with is imagine if every money transaction involved cash tipping the parties involved. And that’s just the beginning.

Like tipping the licensing agent every time you had to renew your driver’s license or get plates. Or tipping the judge for a favorable judgement.

A growing number of activities in the US require tipping, so it's getting there.

USA is pretty darn corrupt. Just because worse places exist does not make USA good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#2...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com