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Comment by grecy | Hacker News Reader

> a cramped airline fuselage isn't the ideal place for your political protest.

Free Speech (but only when we say so)

Isn't it a privilege to fly? Not a right. It's not like an airplane is some public government arena. It's the property of the airlines, just so happens that you have to be cleared by the government to fly. Don't they have the right to refuse service to a customer, especially if that customer is making employees and other customers uneasy. I'm sure if you went into a McDonald's and were wearing some suspicious clothing or start spouting off ridiculous speeches, they'd ask you kindly to leave and tell you that you were not a welcome customer any longer. In fact, I've seen it happen.

There are places for expression and "Free Speech"... maybe sitting next to the 13 year old or grandmother (or any other paying customer) who's flying for the first time in his/her life wearing some silly t-shirt about bombs and anti-government banter isn't the right place for it.

But don't you think it would be a little bit of an overreaction if McDonalds threw you out simply for wearing a "Meat is Murder" t-shirt?

No, but what about a "Bombs in McDonalds are cool." t-shirt? Context. Context. That is all.

Huh? His shirt didn't say anything remotely like "bombs on the airplane are cool"... anymore than his second shirt said "I'm going to poop on this plane's drink cart".

As air travel has matured into infrastructure that is generally depended upon, flying has become a right. Especially a return trip. Failure to see this is a deficiency with the narrow "base primitive" view of rights.

Should airline travel be available to all, irrespective of their ability to pay? If not, then it can't be a right, since rights can not be denied based on ability to pay.

Okay, kindly perform whatever formalization is necessary to interpret my statement in your alluded-to framework (factor out payment, s/right/unrestriction/, $whatever), then get back to me.

If I don't pay for food, I die. If I don't pay for medicines, I die.

Does this then imply I don't have a right to live, because "rights cannot be denied based on the ability to pay"? That I don't have a right to property, because if I don't pay my debts my belongings can be confiscated and sold at auction?

I have a right to appoint my own counsel, but the government won't pay for the counsel I appoint. In order to use that right I have to be able to afford the lawyer I want.

US citizens have a right to run for elected office, but clearly that's not provided free of charge!

Rights are not irrespective or independent of my ability to pay. And if something is a right does not mean I get it for free.

flying has become a right

I think you need to lay out your argument in greater detail than you have done so far.

Society has evolved to the point where many people are regularly traveling long distances. Flying itself has become an integral part of this travel, to the point that driving or taking the train across the country is seen as adventurous. Flight transport is a commodity provided by many carriers in a mature market. The economics of and reliance on this market may change in the future, but as it stands, this commodity is relied upon by the modern world.

To say that carriers should be able to selectively revoke this abstraction and deny travel to specific individuals is to give them the power to force arbitrary rules on anyone who relies on this infrastructure. This would make all rights subject to the whims of the airlines.

The right to free speech is rule that restricts the power of the government only. It has nothing to do with companies or individuals. Just as I can ask you to leave my home if you insult my mother, a company can refuse you access to their airplane if they don't like your T-shirt. That's their business decision.

Hmm. thanks for the info.

Could McDonald's legally deny me entry to their restaurant if I was wearing a T-Shirt that said "I support Obama"?

Further, can they legally deny me entry for no reason at all?

(I'm not trolling, I genuinely don't know the answers)

Generally speaking, most businesses will have some sort of "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" type policy. However, they will often come under fire for (ab)using that policy however they see fit. It is a tricky situation really. It probably comes down to whether or not you fall into a group that is protected. They would be in a media/legal shit storm if they denied you entry because you were in a wheelchair. I don't know if being a Democratic is a protected group.

Edit: I guess specifically if being in that protected group played into why you were denied. Meaning, they can toss you for being drunk even if you're in a wheelchair.

"Congress shall make no law" does not say "UAL shall make no rules"

The idea is that Congress cannot criminalize speech. But the ramifications of your free expression, with respect to those people and institutions that you interact with, is not regulated by congress in so far as a crime is not committed in reaction.

The First Amendment applies to the government, not to private entities such as airlines and not on private property (such as the interior of an aircraft).

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