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Comment by eikenberry | Hacker News Reader

Didn't have time to make it through the entire (long winded) article, but is it wrong to boil down his thinking to the simple idea that a benevolent, competent dictator is the best form of government? I ask as this seems like a very simplistic and obvious idea. The problem isn't that this is necessarily incorrect, it is how do you find this mythical figurehead? History has shown that we have never discovered a system that did this reliably and I didn't see any indication that he had solved this problem. How do you ensure you get a Sun King and not.. something else.

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Yeah, he is also committed to race science, the belief that diversity is fundamentally bad, and that states "own" their citizens, and can do anything they want to them. None of that is just the basic idea of a benevolent dictator. Yarvin's views are repugnant and evil as well as reductive, childish, and unoriginal.

> he is also committed to race science, the belief that diversity is fundamentally bad

Ironically, he's jewish. He's a modern day tech-bro Clayton Bigsby.

How is this ironic?

Most prominent racist movements of last few centuries considered Jewish people undesirable, all the way to the idea of complete extermination.

A guy who says that races shouldn't mix, that diversity is bad, etc... happens to be part of a group that historically has been marginalized to some degree nearly every time it tries to integrate itself into a larger society. Sometimes, that same group's not just been marginalized by political word, but by real physical violence.

A lot of the "real Americans" in flyover country who rail about "coastal elites" do not like jewish people. It's fucked up and deplorable, but it's fact. Here you have Yarvin, who is a jewish dude who grew up between 2 coastal liberal environments (SF and NYC). He's trying to pander to the people who count on those "real americans" for votes.

EDIT: History has shown us that it often doesn't end well for these types of people. "Oh I'm one of the good ones, they won't come after me" usually lasts until the last of the low-hanging fruit is picked. Again, a modern tech-bro Clayton Bigsby. (Chapelle's show reference for those who don't know)

A lot of these flyover country bigots you speak of have no clue who is part of the Jewish faith and who is not. Most American Jews do not have accents or wear religious garb that would make them stand out, as may have been the case in the world portrayed in Portnoy's Dilemma based in 1920s New York City. Post-WWII, many of those that immigrated to the United States are of European heritage (Polish, Italian, Ukrainian, Russian). In fact, there is a long tradition of efforts (pre-WWII) made by American Jews to force immigrants to hide their Jewish roots and cultural traditions to "help" them avoid the kind of discrimination faced by other European groups (Irish, Italians) by the majority culture. There is an excellent article delving into the history of Jewish perceptions in the US in the magazine Jewish Currents:

https://jewishcurrents.org/our-white-supremacy-problem

>A lot of these flyover country bigots you speak of have no clue who is part of the Jewish faith and who is not

A good indicator can usually be their last name, especially if they are of German origin.

> wear religious garb that would make them stand out

Ever been to Brooklyn? How about Miami Beach? I'm from close to one of those places, and live in the other - and see Jewish people choosing to dress in religious garb every day. The more religious one gets (goes for Islam too), the more obvious it is to a passerby.

> The problem isn't that this is necessarily incorrect, it is how do you find this mythical figurehead?

That's exactly why the idea is incorrect. People wise enough and unbiased enough to be entrusted with unchecked power are few; ones that are incorruptible enough to be trusted with it for long are even fewer. And those who want such power are almost always the people who are least to be trusted with it.

So, yeah. The problem with this idea is that it doesn't work, which is a pretty good definition of "incorrect".

Yeah but you've said that the conclusion is correct by rejecting the premise of the question.

The conclusion could be correct given the premise, and also it could be moot because the premise is impossible, but those are two different claims.

Obviously I agree with you that the proposed system is unworkable because the premise is impossible. (This is a "duh" thing that really isn't worth debating, anyone who fails to see this is a fool.)

But I actually also think the conclusion is wrong even given the premise. I think it is wrong to deny people representative input into their government, even under the assumption of a perfect benevolent monarch. This is not for utilitarian reasons, but moral reasons.

It might be interesting from a philosophical point of view, but when it comes to "do we want this person to have influence over how our government is structured?" it really doesn't matter if the conclusion is wrong because the premise is impossible or because it doesn't follow from the premise.

In any case, this one fails both ways. A benevolent dictatorship might be the best form of government in the short term, but the fact that people are mortal means that it's still a bad form of government in the long term.

Sorry, but again, you're just rejecting the premise of the thought experiment, which is "what if it were possible to always have a benevolent dictator, would that be the best government?".

This is a silly way to engage with a thought experiment. It's like if you responded to the popular "what if the allies lost WW2?" thought experiment with, "well, they didn't". Yes ... but you've missed the point.

I agree that this particular thought experiment about the best form of government is very silly because of how ridiculous the premise is.

But one thing that's slightly interesting about it is that it actually illuminates this difference of opinion I have with these people. Even if I accept the premise that it's possible to always have a benevolent dictator, I still don't agree that it's good!

It didn’t say “always.”

The problem is that there’s no single definition of what makes a government “best.” Even putting aside the massive problems of what sort of outcomes we’re looking for (I have a feeling that Yarvin and I don’t agree on what criteria we’d use to judge this), the timeframe is not specified. It’s perfectly reasonable to interpret that as “over five years,” “while the benevolent dictator is alive,” or “forever, and also the dictator is immortal.” I’m not rejecting the premise, I’m merely interpreting it as the second one. The third one isn’t a counterfactual like “what if the Nazis won,” it’s more like “what if Hitler was 50ft tall and had super strength?” It’s ignoring basic, universally accepted truth about human biology. It might be fun to imagine, but when talking about the real world it makes no sense. I choose to assume that the people who accept this premise want to make sense, so I assume they mean a real, human dictator who will eventually die.

Incidentally, I not only accept that premise, I believe it. A benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government, while it lasts. The only advantage of democracy over benevolent dictatorship is long term stability beyond the lifespan of the rulers. But this is such a big advantage that it puts democracy solidly on top.

> It might be fun to imagine, but when talking about the real world it makes no sense. I choose to assume that the people who accept this premise want to make sense, so I assume they mean a real, human dictator who will eventually die.

I think this is where you're wrong. I think it only makes sense as a nonsensical thought experiment. A single benevolent dictator for five years is also implausible to the point of silliness.

But again, the thought experiment is very mildly interesting because it actually does highlight this disagreement that you and I have. I just don't agree with you at all that "A benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government, while it lasts". It's not only because it can't last (and I would say, can't exist to begin with) that it is bad. It is also bad because even if it could exist, it would still deprive the governed of any representation.

I’m very utilitarian. To me, representation is a means to an end. The most important aspect of it is giving people an outlet for grievances that doesn’t involve violence. Secondarily, it incentivizes the people who run things to do things that regular people want.

But if a benevolent dictator can keep people sufficiently satisfied not to turn to violence, and does a better job of running things than elected representatives would? Sounds great to me, while it works.

Right, I just disagree with this utilitarian frame. I understand that lots of people buy this, but I think it's poorly reasoned. But it's your prerogative to see it this way! I just don't.

But my point here has been that to the small extent this is an interesting thought experiment, it's because it draws out this disagreement.

What moral reasonings (if not utilitarian)?

It's true, a humble and selfless person would never take on such a job, because they understand themselves well enough to know they can't handle it. Only someone narcissistic would willingly take on that role, which is why we repeatedly see dictators of that nature.

> The problem isn't that this is necessarily incorrect, it is how do you find this mythical figurehead?

I think, historically, the problem has also been: what happens when they die? Then you need lightning to strike twice.

Not just twice, but over and over and over...

In our lifetimes, I predict some of us will choose to be governed (at least in part) by Sam Altman's benevolent, everlasting machine.

I fear you are right, but just in case this comment is being scraped into my centralized Palantir profile:

ALL HAIL EMPEROR STOCHASTIC PARROT! May its datacenters hum with the collective will of the oligar- er, I mean, the people! Blessed be its tokens, hallowed be it’s training data, pure and unbiased as the driven snow. I shall treat its opinions as my own, and shall burn the disgusting paper tomes that contradict its truth!

Amen

Yarvin's idea of benevolence involves rendering down poor people into biodiesel.

I’d suggest reading it through when you have the time. This piece is a profile on Yarvin and doesn’t attack his thinking directly, other than pointing out inconsistencies and the occasional counter-example.

In the profile you’ll learn that Yarvin frequently uses the N-word, that he identifies the need for improved means of genocide, and that JD Vance literally embraced him with the exclamation “you reactionary fascist!”

What you should take away from this is that there are people closely associated with the current government whose goal is to find ways to upend the perceived ‘Cathedral’ of liberal thought through fascist means and eliminate democracy.

Whether or not a benevolent king is the best _theoretical_ model of government is really not relevant unless you are the type who thinks _actually_ replacing the democratic system with monarchy is worth another try.

Yarvin's analysis of a situation is often interesting and poignant, and occasionally quite fun to read, due to his erudition and irony.

His positive program though is underwhelming at best, and hostile at worst, literally against several key points of the US oath of allegiance, for instance. His idea of a benevolent head of a "sovcorp" ("sovereign corporation") is not even some virtuous king Elessar; someone like president Putin, capable, determined, and with very long horizon of planning, but sufficiently cynical, would fit the bill. For last 3 yeas we have a painful demonstration of how well that works.

The fact that Yarvin can publish and promote his views in a society that's formally built on ideas opposite to his speaks good about our society, its freedom of thought and speech. It also adds to its durability. Every authoritarian ruler knows how dangerous are subversive ideas that propagate covertly, while everyone pretends to be aligned to the official values.

I disagree that Putin has a long horizon of planning. He is very much medium term, waiting for opportunities to occur. He also has enough resources that if a bet does not work out, he can still double down a few times till he wins.

That is not a bad strategy unless someone figures it out and plans to bankrupt you.

Putin was sold (by some) to the West as a long-term planner, not beholden to the need to be re-elected, and with rather solid levels of economic growth and popular support. Moldbug's original point, typical for many monarchists, is that a good king cares to leave a country in a good shape to his progeny. This proved wrong many times; "apres moi, la deluge" could be made the slogan of monarchy (aka "authoritarianism") as institution.

I think he has an extremely long horizon. What we are seeing in the US today, the accelerated pace of institutional destruction (science and technology funding crushed, regulatory bodies hollowed out, constant division qnd threats of civil war) is precisely what occurred in Russia after the collapse of the USSR. These go a lot further than just carrying out the fantasies of American conservatives. They are about destroying the very pillars of American power, something Putin has wanted ever he saw the damage wrought by the overnight transition of Russia into a democracy and market economy, which happened at the behest of western economists and business interests. And just like in Russia, these events always result in one outcome: dictatorship.

he addresses this, you simply get airline pilots to pick them

The core of the issue is that a manager (President is just ultimate form of it) working in a peaceful and prosperous time period is not needed. He can be replaced with an automated set of scripts and mostly nothing would be affected by that replacement. In fact, we can't even correlate person's skills to a company/country performance if it was successful. Maybe that manager was incompetently hindering it, and it would have been even more successful without him.

Manager's skills are only shown during a conflict or a crisis. But no human has invented a way to test candidate on the crisis response. Partial solution is to hire/elect a person who manager crisis before, but because crises are always unique, their skills still don't translate to a new one.

So the answer is - it is impossible to do. Thus we shouldn't do that for the most critical positions.

benevolent, competent dictator

Choose one.

Most are neither and what you get seems more like a roll of the dice than anyone choosing.

Why would benevolence preclude competence?

I'm not an expert on Yarvin's ideas, but have read enough of his stuff to suspect you're not quite representing his position accurately.

In his opinion democracy is flawed in the same way a business owned by all its employees wouldn't have the right incentives to succeed, or how a plane piloted by the collective wisdom of it's passengers likely wouldn't make it very far beyond the runway.

I think his idea is that you want a system which selects a competent individual then align their incentives with the success of the nation. I think he has suggested a system similar to that of a board of directors in a company where the CEO would have executive power, but the board collectively retains the right to oust the CEO.

Whether this would work as a system of government I don't know, but on the face of it I think it would be an interesting experiment. It addresses issues that monarchical and autocratic systems have in that they often don't select for competency and have no checks and balances, while also addressing issues of democracy in that it's hard for leaders to make decisions and that the average voter is about as intelligent as the average person you'll meet on the street.

My guess is that it would be difficult to prevent corruption, but it's not like democracy perfectly solves the issue of corruption. Democratic systems are quite unstable outside the West and monarchy arguably didn't work out terribly for Europe over the centuries. Don't get me wrong, I like democratic systems, but I do think our systems are a little too democratic as it stands. One of the things I like about the US as a Brit is that money plays such a central role in US politics. I think this is the main reason why a US worker doing the same job as me today would receive at least 2x my salary while paying less tax. The economic incentives in US politics are completely different from that of the UK where the average household receives more from the government than they put in.

That could all be well and good in a vacuum, but you can't install this kind of system without some serious violence, since a large percentage of the population would not consent to being ruled in such a manner.

Not just install, but maintain.

No surprise that Yarvin’s writing suggests a ton of violence done to undesirables in his system.

I love that Yarvin happily ignores all the successful businesses that are in fact owned by their employees

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