Comment by awongh | Hacker News Reader

Comment by awongh | Hacker News Reader

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Also, I think the use of plastics and it's impact on the environment is probably overstated from a consumer standpoint- no one really thinks about the systemic issues and the cause and effect cycles at work. Everyone is concerned with micro plastics now, but taking drink bottles and making them into chairs is just a distraction.

We have a lot of knowledge on how to literally burn plastic and not pollute anything- waste really doesn't have to be an issue.

The micro plastics that studies find in the human body are probably from sources no one cares to address- acrylic paint, tires, polyester clothing, things that are constantly being ground into nano particle size bits that are omni-present in all environments (and no one even considers getting rid of).

If you live in a first world country the ocean plastic isn't from you- if you drink from a plastic straw or not it probably doesn't matter. That plastic is most likely from fishing nets and from a few countries where people throw their waste directly into a few rivers.

People would rather focus on shaming those who don't sort their trash and drink from plastic straws.

I largely agree with what you say but I have my doubts about the following statement.

> If you live in a first world country the ocean plastic isn't from you

I live in Ireland and I’m not sure that’s the case for us. Plastic was collected in the recycling bins and then shipped to China for processing. I was always skeptical of the environmental soundness of shipping plastic to the other side of the planet – and the lack of transparency about what happens to the plastic waste after. I always wondered if any plastic that wasn’t PET was just dumped in a river or the sea. A few years ago, China stopped accepting plastic refuse from Western countries so the plastic was sent to other Southeast Asian countries but they also find it to be not economically viable to process. I looked into this issue before but found it hard to get solid evidence that the plastic is actually recycled. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of the plastic that is collected in the West for “recyling” ends up in the ocean, while we in the west pat ourselves on the back for doing the “right thing”.

Personally, I do my best to Reduce and Reuse rather than Recycle.

I guess that mostly proves my point in the sense that it's not most people's personal choices that determine if plastic ends up in the ocean- it's either incompetence or downright deliberately deceptive actions by someone else- it's crazy to think that we need to make chairs out of bottles because someone decided to ship the plastic to another country rather than actually deal with it properly.

In that sense, saying "recycle or it'll end up in the ocean" is like saying "eat your food because people are starving in africa". Not only are the cause and effect not related but then people ignore the true underlying causes.

==it's not most people's personal choices that determine if plastic ends up in the ocean- it's either incompetence or downright deliberately deceptive actions by someone else-==

It is your personal choice to consume goods packaged in plastic. If you, as a consumer, continue to eat pre-packaged peaches and apple slices rather than just eating apples and peaches, you are consciously adding to the known problem. Blaming "someone else" doesn't change the decision that you, as an autonomous individual, have made.

Your stance uses the same logic that people use to excuse their impact on climate change. People who are generating trash (specifically plastic trash) are at fault for worsening the problem of excessive plastic trash, full stop. The same way that burning coal worsens the climate problem. The justification that the problem is so big that individuals can't (or shouldn't) change their behaviors is a coping mechanism. It's borderline nihilistic.

> People who are generating trash (specifically plastic trash) are at fault for worsening the problem of excessive plastic trash, full stop.

You can be absolutist about personal moral choices, but writing this reply used precious resources that are destroying the planet, on a device that almost certainly also contributed to pollution and human misery.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't be informed and make moral and politically influenced decisions, just that the impact of those choices is probably overstated and people weaponize their choices against others for their own gain.

Everyone can individually decide what they can accept, but I don't like it when people say I should buy their thing made out of recycled plastic like it's better for the earth if I do. I don't think that equivalence is obvious if you look at the whole problem.

==You can be absolutist about personal moral choices, but writing this reply used precious resources that are destroying the planet, on a device that almost certainly also contributed to pollution and human misery.==

Fortunately, I live in a state with some of the greenest energy sources in the country. Living here is a choice I make.

I also made the choice to write my comment and "use" those resources. I own that choice and the consequences. My comment simply suggests that you should own your choices and their consequences, too.

==people weaponize their choices against others for their own gain.==

It feels like you are doing a form of this when you dismiss the individual's contributions to global trash issues and outsource the blame to "others." You have gained peace-of-mind by convincing yourself you aren't part of the problem.

> you are consciously adding to the known problem. Blaming "someone else" doesn't change the decision

The "known problem" is plastic going to the landfill, which is barely a concern. awongh's original comment mentioned two plastic problems worthy of concern - microplastic and ocean plastic. Neither of that is related to disposable plastic going to the landfill.

==microplastic and ocean plastic. Neither of that is related to disposable plastic going to the landfill.==

I think the "known problem" is the consumption of too many products made out of plastic or with plastic packaging which leads to plastic trash. This over-dependence ties directly to the microplastic and ocean plastic problem. According to the WWF [0], there are three main ways that plastic ends up in the ocean:

1. Throwing plastic in the bin when it could be recycled. Plastic you put in the bin ends up in landfill. When rubbish is being transported to landfill, plastic is often blown away because it’s so lightweight. From there, it can eventually clutter around drains and enter rivers and the sea this way.

2. Littering. Litter dropped on the street doesn’t stay there. Rainwater and wind carries plastic waste into streams and rivers, and through drains. Drains lead to the ocean!

3. Products that go down the drain. Many of the products we use daily are flushed down toilets, including wet wipes, cotton buds and sanitary products. Microfibres are even released into waterways when we wash our clothes in the washing machine.

[0] https://www.wwf.org.uk/updates/how-does-plastic-end-ocean

> Microfibres are even released into waterways when we wash our clothes in the washing machine.

Clothing companies often tout how much of their polyester fibre is from recycled sources. It's ironic how plastic recycling being perceived as "good" contributes to the problem.

I do as well but it's more recognizing that large companies and govts created or allowed these problems to occur. So even when we try as individuals to slow the damage, they are capable of undoing all that with one bad decision. Like you say with the lack of records for where the stuff goes.

Also anecdotally when staying with a friend in a different city I had to break the news that the bin they thought was recycling went into the same truck. They had been separating their recyclables for months. You can try but it might not matter cuz they don't care.

I still try but would be lying if I wasn't a bit bitter they successfully shifted blame onto consumers.

I also still try. Before putting plastic packaging in the green bin, I clean and wash it to avoid contaminating the plastic but then my plastic waste gets mixed in with recyclables from my neighbours who aren’t co conscientious. Even if I assume that the plastic really will be recycled in East Asia, there is still a fair chance that I’m just wasting my time and unnecessarily using water by doing so. It’s the lack of transparency that really annoys me.

On the issue of transparency, most people think that the Green Dot symbol¹ means an item can be recycled. It was only about 10 years ago that I learned that this just means that “suppliers and producers have contributed financially to the recycling of packaging in Europe”². In Ireland, Repak is an industry-led NGO that was created as a form of green-washing regulatory capture and I presume other European countries have their own equivalent.

¹ https://repak.ie/images/uploads/icons/The_Green_Dot_Symbol.p...

² https://repak.ie/recycling/recycling-symbols/

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