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Being a SWE doesn't mean you have to be involved in the startup grinder. I work for a privately owned company, and while my TC would be way better working for a FAANG or dealing with the startup world, there's no way I would mentally survive working in either of those environments for the 12 years I've done where I am now.

I don't work on glamorous projects; most of what I make will never be seen outside of my company, even. But I've got a child, got to move back to the rural town I was born in after I inherited my late grandfather's house (since I've been WFH my 12+ years), and I can genuinely say I enjoy my work most days.

If it's the actual job you hated I'd tell you to go back to school for something else or get into a trade, but it sounds more like you're just tired of the culture surrounding the startup and big tech scene. Go find work from companies that aren't "tech companies", you're less likely to run into leetcode interviews, shitty work/life balance, and the constant fear of your employer folding any morning.

Idk how long it would take me to be interview ready - I know it's not a great look and above all it's really embarrassing... but leetcode seems like a waste of time and side projects seem like the only way to prep for non-leetcode pairing sessions where they always expect you to know all the bindings / syntax like the back of your hand.

Really depends on the company and interviewer. I can't teach problem solving and critical thinking skills, but those are what I focus on during interviews and why I toss 98% of the applications that make it to my manager and myself after an interview. Given I am a hybrid SRE/SWE my role and team is a bit weird, but I can give somebody extra time on tasks while they're learning new tools or responsibilities, what I can't do is have somebody tell me "I don't know how to do that" and require I sit with them and walk them through the entire thing or create a detailed step-by-step design document that takes longer than doing the work itself. Being able to do the research, think about the problem, and design a solution is what separates the warm bodies that contracting firms provide from actual engineers - and I don't just need warm bodies.

Hell, if I had an open req right now I'd ask for your CV, because I think you're probably being a bit too hard on yourself and overthinking things. There's plenty of chill places who just need somebody to keep those couple critical pieces of software that are 15 years old running, and there's nothing wrong with work just being a means to an end.

EDIT: Actually, send it to me anyway. If nothing else I can at least give you some more specific advice or a mock interview and see if there's anyone in my network that you'd fit with. Email's in my profile.

I really appreciate your thoughts here - I'll send my cv your way.

I'd say my strong-suit is in vaguely defined zero to one work and scale out for more sharply scoped functionality. That said, if you ask me to write a react app from scratch, I'm likely just going to lean on cursor / claude to do the boilerplate and hop in when I need to make sure things are surgically correct.

> what I can't do is have somebody tell me "I don't know how to do that" and require I sit with them and walk them through the entire thing

Man is this underrated. My peers are so hyper-focused on whether or not new hires know SQL (of all things), and not whether they can adequately problem solve. And then they wonder why my hires, though they might start slower, end up being stars.

To your other point, I’m even fine spending a day explaining the business to someone new - it’s complicated. But I try to bring on people who only have to hear it once.

Anyways, I guess I just like to +1/amplify sensible hiring posts.

Explaining the business is part of onboarding, both for employment as well as introducing somebody into an existing project IMO. It took me years to fully grasp everything with the team that I started with, and that’s not a knock on anything, but the reality of processes that grew organically for the 10+ years before I started there.

I love sitting down with newer employees, especially junior engineers, and going over stuff like that, along with explaining why specific design choices were made, and concepts they may be unfamiliar with. One of the ones that paired with me on many of my projects from my original team is now the maintainer of those very same projects now, and hot damn does it bring a smile to my face that somebody can send me a message about something and I can just @mention him and pass the buck without worrying. We’d mostly been a .Net+MSSQL shop and these projects were a mix of Python, Kotlin, and PostgreSQL, but he ran with it after I helped get him setup and walked him through the code and gave him some time to pick up the tools.

That success is what solidified my views that critical thinking skills, along with a commitment to lifelong learning, are the best indicators of success for new hires with my org. I can’t teach people these qualities, but those that have them will seek the answers and know how to apply them once they’ve picked them up.

That breach of privacy from the recruiter sounds extremely frustrating. but i'd suggest still looking for paid SWE work in the short term, so you have a way to pay the bills and save some money, until you figure out what your next plan is.

If you've founded multiple companies previously, can you reach out to your network and see if there's a former client / colleague you could help with consulting or contract work, using your skills and some of your existing domain specific knowledge?

The recruiters weren't at fault - the VC fund jumping to conclusions and running to tattle to my cofounder and NOT me first was what I had issues with. If I had more personal capital I'd consider suing. If anyone wants the name of the firm I'm more than happy to name names.

My network is ok, but frankly not great. Fortunately I have friends in New York who support my decision to leave and do other things in tech - potentially altogether. I really appreciate your kind words.

I've considered law school for some specific niche interests I've cultivated - fortunately have good friends in that field as well.

SWE is not my calling. I never really wanted to be a SWE, and don't have a degree, but things just kind of fell into my lap during the pandemic when i was desperate and short on options, so here i am. I had several jobs previously that i enjoyed quite a bit more but paid barely enough to get by, even living in practically-free flyover nowheres.

My experience is very different than yours. I've never worked for a proper tech company, nor a startup. I haven't been asked a ton of questions about how I engage with software outside of work in interviews, and none of my live coding interviews have been leetcode or memorization.

For me SWE is a nice stable pleasant 9-5 job, not the best job I've had, not the worst, but unquestionably the biggest responsibility-to-income ratio i can possibly imagine. I do mostly pleasant and unstressful work 40 hours a week and have enough money to do most anything i want. $140k goes a looooong way here in Chicago.

I think the burnout you're feeling is probably more tied to SF/big tech/startup culture than it is SWE as a career. I mean don't get me wrong I'm not certain i see myself being happy doing this forever either, but my "doing tech at non-tech or tech adjacent companies" experience sounds so drastically different than yours that i think you should give it a shot before completely changing careers. I can't speak to SF but i do at least see lots of these kinds of jobs out of New York when I'm browsing job listings. Chicago has lots of these kinds of jobs in theory but the market isn't great this second (though it probably isn't anywhere, is it?). Other major cities like Philadelphia, Seattle, hell even LA would save you money over SF and NY if that's a concern.

30 is still really young. Plenty of time to figure out how you want to live still. Clout and money don't really mean much but living comfortably with time and capital to do things you like, do.

> Clout and money don't really mean much but living comfortably with time and capital to do things you like, do.

You sound like a mature person. Thank you for sharing that perspective!

Hmm.

1. Get a job that pays the bills for starters, doesn't have to be fancy or pay much, just enough that you don't become homeless.

2. Do something in your spare time that you're interested, just for fun, with no expectations or even plans of making money from it.

3. You will profit in a way you couldn't possibly plan or predict. Or maybe not. But probably. Either way, you're not homeless or starving.

Even though I can't really afford it I'm going to start seeing a therapist. Right now just reaching for some kind of knowledge work that won't torpedo my resume. If I really didn't care I'd just go get a job at Fedex in Maine or Vermont.

What's most embarrassing is potentially having to stay at my parents to avoid sinking into my savings further. Obviously others are having a hard time to, part of the mental hurdle is acknowledging that what I thought were "interesting choices" has lead to me being single at 30 with only a few hundred k to show for it.

Don't compare your life to others. Their measure of success is not absolute. You have to have a dream and follow it. But you can't dream while you're chasing the dreams others have for themselves or for you. Think for example of Jesus who at 30 was unmarried, childless, and left his career in carpentry to become homeless and help the poor and sick, yet he was so influential in history that we count our years from when he was born. Francis of Assisi did the same thing about 800 years ago, living with lepers and rebuilding a broken down church nearly by himself, and to this day even atheists have statues of him in their gardens. I'm not saying you should be like these people and follow their path, only pointing out that their path looked nothing like the stereotypical path people expect of you, yet they were far happier and more fulfilled than anyone you've ever met, not to mention their positive influence and legacies far outreach anything anyone you've ever met will ever achieve.

Fuckin hell. A few hundred K? That's an unbelievable sum of money from where I'm sitting. Manny times how much I've been able to save over 4 years of an SWE career.

You'll be ok. Move somewhere cheaper and work in tech for a non-tech company. There's no shame in relying on your parents if you have to but as someone that doesn't have parents or anywhere near the savings you do i really think you'll be alright. Being a SWE at a non tech company really will eliminate most of your issues with the work i think.

Yeah, move to a smaller town where apartments can be like $700/month and get a regular job to augment your hundreds of thousands of dollars of savings, you'll avoid starving and going homeless for a good 5 or 10 years that way, plenty of time to figure your life out. Plus you'll have more down to earth experiences that will help give you some seriously needed perspective.

I've lived in non target locales before and I like them - but I think I want to meet my wife before fully bugging out. SF dating is atrocious so I'm amicable to the idea of being in NYC for a bit.

If you weren’t having any luck in SF, nyc will improve your chances but it won’t fix it. NYC is a hyper competitive landscape for dating and the serious women are off market immediately. It also relies on dating apps very very heavily for serious relationships. I’d test the waters online before jumping head first.

I previously lived in new york for four years - but you're not wrong.

All I can say is you are not alone. When I read this, almost all you say resonates with me - and there is no privacy, especially in startups. I learnt it the hard way too.

Please don't think you are not good enough. The interviewing process is just ridiculous and illogical (for an industry that deals with logic all the time!).

I don't have any answers - since I am also in the current state. And I also found out that no one has any answers - everyone is probably lost in some way or another.

Take some time off if you can. And if you have the luxury, don't think about anything else for a while.

You sound burnt out. If possible move back in with parents and family, take some time to rest and recoup. Things will seem a lot clearer once you take some time to reset

What was most offensive to me was (aside from the blatant breach of privacy -which only added to problems with my cofounder and I) was that they seemed to take issue with the fact I was advocating for the best option for my value as an engineer. Also... most of the calls they received were from recruiters doing checks BEFORE reaching out to me. Immediately jumping to the conclusion I was "running around shopping my resume" is candidly childish at best.

This was all for an initial investment of $120k which is frankly hilarious. The idea I wouldn't do whats best for me because you gave me $100k.

Many SWEs suffer from imposter syndrome. If you have been in the industry for any length of time, you know plenty of tech people who have 'made it big'; so it is easy to feel inadequate if you haven't.

Some of those who are very successful are truly talented and deserve everything they got; but some were just lucky. It's not blind luck like winning the lottery, but rather being at the right place at the right time.

You may have much more talent than you give yourself credit for.

I think I'm maybe just burnt out, but also maybe using cursor too much zapped my brain. I literally failed a tech screen for writing typescript. Not sure I really have the motivation to re-learn.

Thanks for your kind words. I did after all build some cool things during this time I'm still proud of.

> doing this without pay

No, you got paid in vibes.

Never. Accept. Vibes.

Vibes are for losers. Refuse to be treated like a loser.

Reject vibes; demand money.

It is always a mistake to do un-paid work for an organization that wants turn a profit from your work. They will always suck you dry, as if you are a fire hydrant and they are a blackhole.

> Planning on letting him know I'm out near the end of this week.

Stand up for yourself. Stop working immediately and tell them that you won't work for free any more. If they want further work, they should start paying immediately. And consider demanding they pay for work already done.

Your time is valuable; you can't get any of it back. Only genuinely charitable organizations and in-need individuals should ever get free work; everyone else must pay for work.

> Co-founder didn't understand why I wasn't interested working without salary anymore.

This is methhead logic on his part. Again, reject vibes; demand money. Methheads live on vibes, especially the vibes from stimulants.

> most of my friends make way more money than me or have families

Again, reject vibes. You see their vibes, but are you so sure that they are actually doing well overall? They could be in debt up to their eye-balls; they could have terrible family situations; they could be totally burned-out from working 80-hour weeks. A lot of people put out good vibes to try to make themselves feel better about a bad situation; vibes can't fix a broken home, a terrible job, or a bad financial decisions.

A lot of people have started families/careers later in life. Now is the time to figure out why you want money/family/whatever. Working to feed your family is rewarding; working just to work is self-harm. Starting a family in order to shower them with love is rewarding; starting a family because it's a milestone is egotistical.

> Anyone else pivot away from tech and still make half-decent income?

Reject vibes; find a boring job. Research the sort of jobs that nobody wants to work, but which pay well. Those jobe have no vibes to offer, so they attract few candidates. A SWE can find good work doing boring jobs, because SWEs focus on details; and details are the antidote to vibes.

SF startups seem like a fucking nightmare. I live in a second-tier city and there's lots of six-figure, 9-5 software dev roles that are nowhere near as competitive. Consider relocating somewhere with a lower CoL and more sane culture?

That's the plan for now - if I found a job with decent enough salary I'd more than consider returning to New York where the culture is more sane and people do... anything other than just tech.

If your options are only SF or New York you're leaving a whole world of opportunities out.

Including, crucially, all the less expensive ones

These seem to have the most opportunity and most optionality. I've considered austin, but it seems pretty dead. Vastly prefer east coast.

No, “most opportunities” only if you want to work the startup grind. If you don’t, there are tech jobs in other cities that are boring stable 9-5 jobs if you don’t need Big Tech level salary.

You have a massive country to choose from.

I was going to suggest this as well.

Consider become an auditor who audits the sort of work you no longer wish to perform. You’re uniquely equipped to audit it, whether that lies in forensic, privacy, security, financial, compliance auditing. And your cynicism with the field will help temper your natural bias as ex-SWE to give excess credence to SWE claims.

Curious what kind of companies I'd reach out to for these roles?

I saw things beginning to rapidly deteriorate years ago, checked out, and focused on being able to live on very little. I've got land, 10-20 years worth of savings, and a small shack. I think I'm just going to monetize side projects for the next few years and maybe try the truck farming thing.

Formal collaboration depends on a culture that's more or less dead now. I wouldn't bet my future on it getting sorted out.

It's sad because SF is such a beautiful and culturally rich city. A deeply spiritual place in terms of it's geography. Unfortunately, the vibe always felt off to me - almost like someone had ripped out some part of the soul of the city. It feels like an economic zone many only travel to in order to extract money.

I'll be sad to leave SF, but frankly I couldn't see myself being happy here long-term.

One thing that gets lost in spaces like this is that there are plenty of essentially non "tech" companies that have large technical aspects to their core business but still lie outside the realm of what would traditionally be considered a pure "tech" company, such as most tech startups would be. One area that immediately comes to mind from past experience is banking/finance/insurance and ecommerce. I don't think the roles or the paybands are as flashy, but they can be extraordinarily stable and more of a "normal" work experience than your typical 'up and coming' startup. I've only had one small startup experience so far and I would consider all my other roles at non-tech companies much more stable and enjoyable than that one was, which wanted me to sell my soul for a very speculative goal, for what now I would consider pennies for the effort spent.

I'm looking into some sales and "analyst" roles. The biggest hurdle appears to be them being confused why I'm leaving tech if it's "such a great field" and lacking directly applicable experience. I've had a few breakthroughs though.

Why not try be a swe somewhere besides SF?

I'm hoping for a remote or hybrid gig. If I could find something in Portland Maine that would be amazing - but I doubt there's much opportunity there for SWE's.

You could start a business. Not a startup and not necessarily even a software business, although your experience would make it easier to hire programmers. Understanding how the business end of the business works is valuable.

You could go into management.

You could do SW work in a non-technical field. Manufacturing is making a resurgence.

My resume seems too fragmented for eng management roles, same odd hurdle for product. The few bites I've gotten have all been technical product roles - which actually makes a lot of sense.

Part of what also drove me to hate SF is how so much of "business" there is entirely fake. It's vapid and disgusting.

Might take some time to see friends as well - I've just had a few very exciting years making ok money with very little consistency and all I want now is a normal job that maybe pays $140k or so. I don't feel like that's insane either - the notion that being able to pay for an apt food and a car is "entitlement" in 2025 is ridiculous.

but thanks for your kind words.

At 30, you're still young!

If I was starting today, rather than an electrical engineering degree, I'd choose a trade: probably electrician, or plumber.

I know a few kids working for themselves in these trades and they are in unceasing demand.

John's right, guys.

While they are in demand, it wanes/self corrects as all the subcontractors start their own gigs, overpopulate, and contact back to a few providers. The road to financial success in them is also long and brutal. If the economy tanks, there will also be a lot of trades people out of work due to the lack of new construction. I'm assuming that would impact apprenticeships too.

Unfortunately, I don't really want to consider contract work. I largely want a consistent paycheck I can count on.

Eh... trades are overrated. They're hard, the people typically suck to be around, and they're volatile. A lot of people making good money in trades are on a grind, 60-80 hours of work a week. Sure, you could do that, but it's still a grind.

There's plenty of low effort stable jobs available, and being a programmer can be one of them. There's companies out the wazoo who just need a mediocre programmer to work ~40 hours a week. But you could also be a clinical pharmacist, or an accountant, or a supply chain manager.

This is generally my take as well. I have a few friends who switched into the trades and realized that in modern times, cheap foreign labor and PE has done a number on the trades. Many of them also lamented that although their bosses were good - many ppl in the trades still treat coworkers like garbage and engage in blue collar hazing. It's not everyone but I just have no patience for that stuff.

You could pivot into something related to tech that doesn't involve coding - sales, technical writing, etc.

I feel you. That’s not easy and you have every motive to be frustrated. Tech interviews nowdays are really strange, but also seems that you have burnout. Take a bit of therapy it helped me a lot

Somehow they feel more degrading than usual - I'm fully open about the fact that my ability to "write from memory" has atrophied and many engineers are just better than me. It's just wild that to get a half decent job I have to do things like implement json parsers from scratch in 20 min...

Not all SWE jobs have the same culture and there's work outside of silicon valley. That said, it sounds like you've decided that this isn't for you anymore so what is? What's something that makes you excited or you find yourself thinking about a lot. There's a lot of other opportunities out there, and you should feel proud of the experiences you had and mistakes you made. Don't worry about what others think and go find another chapter to start. (That said, you may need to accept a lower salary for a while.)

Frankly, I'm okay with anything around $75k for now. I only made $30k last year and the exit package (as a founder) is held up in some litigation currently. All I want is to pay off some credit card debt and be able to sleep well for a few weeks.

Always look at voluneer / non-profit groups related to something interested in while trying to figurue out what's next. aka build social contacts / gain insite into other areas to pursue.

What minimum income do you need to feel safety in the next 6 months?

$90k (per annum) minimum.

I want to pivot to arts and philosophy, but these are areas with guaranteed hardship when it comes to money.

My luck is that there's still a lot that interests me in tech, like datalakes, data intensive systems, OTP and webdev with elixir and phoenix, compilers and micro vms...

For me it's an easy answer, I can use tech to finance my true purpose. I'm also lucky enough to live in a country where 66k USD affords me a very comfortable life.

For you there seems to be something more fundamental missing. You seem to be in the start of a journey inwards to understand what's your purpose, what could fill the Ikigai for you.

If you have money, take a break, travel, go meet people, broad your possibilities. The world isn't just SWE, specially silicon valley cutthroat morally-bankrupt SWE. If you immerse yourself in the world out there there'll be no guarantee you'll find what you want and there is a good chance you'll suffer, but it's likely you'll find something, and that I think makes it all worth it.

Haha, cool to see someone else who's done lots of work with Elixir! Most of my early career was building elixir for fintech companies.

Not sure that I'm ready to leave the U.S. yet - currently that would probably push my stress over the edge. Fortunately, I've never really gotten that much out of material things or clout chasing. That said, money is money and money gives you options.

That said, I solidly do not have any interest engaging in SF culture any longer. Frankly I find it kind of pathetic and entertaining.

I want to prioritize my life and find another GF (had a breakup about a year ago). Relationships (friends or otherwise) have always given me more than stupid startup clout, which has always proven to be single dimensional or fake.

Really appreciate the kind words. If I could make money doing it, I'd love to be an arborist in the east coast.

The planet really needs more arborists, I hope you'll find success and happiness in it.

I mean, I would say least try working for a salaried programming job in a stable company. It's still an incredibly well paying career for the level of responsibility & seniority. I'm paid almost as much as an MP and I'm on the bottom rung of my company with virtually no responsibility.

I think if you go and get a "normal" job like being an electrician you'd be in for a shock about the level of work and relatively low pay compared to programming.

On the other hand, I wouldn't keep doing it if you hate it.

I'm working on this - but frankly most of these companies appear to have off-shored their roles or stop responding when they realize I'm not on H1B. Sometimes I think because I'm a black man they think I'm an immigrant that they can hire more cheaply. It's happened on numerous occasions before.

I've actually thought quite a bit about being an arborist. I've always kept trees at a few friends places and really enjoy the ecology aspect. That said, I don't want to live at or around the poverty line like I did while I was a founder at a prev startup only making $40k post tax. I'm just not about that life anymore.

I have a friend who does that. I don't think you'd be able to get a job doing that without any experience. He found it quite hard to get one and he did a degree on trees and had years of experience as a tree surgeon. And as you say, pay is not good.

> This was effectively the most unprofessional breach of privacy I've ever experienced and as a result I think I'm done working in software (don't even ask me my opinion of SF).

Huh? Power to you, and that is awful behavior, but this sounds strange. Why let one person decide your career for you?

Ask HN: Decided I no longer want to be a SWE – what next?