Root for your friends
josephthacker.com
josephthacker.com
This:
“No one comes to mind? Maybe you haven’t really trusted anyone with your wins yet.”
really, really hit me for some reason. I’m pretty averse to praise/congratulations — even if I feel it’s deserved! — so I don’t really share my wins with people. How can I expect to have people hype me up if I don’t let them in a little? It’s obvious when I write it all out but I kinda can’t believe how long I’ve been operating this way.
Anyway, great post!
For the longest time I was this and unfortunately I got bitter over time. But then a couple of years ago I got back into the mindset again. A few bad years later I realized that the more happy you are for your friends, the more happy you are. Do it for yourself and nobody else.
If you're asking why not have both motivations for it, I think that their suggestion is based on the assumption that some people might be struggling to do it for altruistic reasons if it doesn't seem like the people they're cheering deserve it. Even though it's somewhat counterintuitive to my, in my experience this is a pretty common way of thinking, especially when people feel like rewards they had to work hard for come easily for those who get them later. As a (partially made up) example, imagine if you obtained a degree where one of the requirements was a grueling, difficult course completely unrelated to anything you're trying to study, and the year after you graduate, the university finally recognizes that the requirement was unreasonable and removed it. Following the line of thinking from the article, the response that would be the most beneficial would be to be happy for those students who no longer have to take the course, but from what I've seen, it's at least as common for people to instead be upset about the unfairness of having to do the unnecessary work. For people who feel this way, I'd argue that the more compelling reason to try to feel happy rather than resentful isn't how it affects the students who get to avoid this extra work, but because the resentment doesn't really achieve anything other than making you feel bad. While it's not as easy as just "deciding" not to feel that way, I do think that we have the ability to influence our own mindsets in the long term, and I genuinely believe that actively leaning into the idea of celebrating the good thing happening for others each time a circumstance like this happens will eventually make it easier to let go of the resentment when it happens again in the future.
What gets me is when I have a few times found the people I am hyping for are actually putting me down, or selling me out to management.
> Even if you root for the “wrong” friends, it’s still the best way to live. Life is better not feeling jealous. You can sleep so much easier at night by genuinely being happy for your friends, even if they’re a bit jealous of you.
Check out The Untethered Soul by Michael Singer
The key for me is understanding that the emotion itself isn't a choice, and therefore isn't something I need to try to control it feel guilty about. Feeling angry or jealous or sad is unavoidable, but feeling those emotions without acting in ways that fuels them without any other reason often ends up making people feel worse for longer. I don't want to make it seem like I don't struggle with this as much as anyone else, but the times when I've been able to follow my own advice about this pretty much universally have ended up better for me than the times when I let my emotions dictate my actions.
Good luck!
Your comment reminded me of a teacher who told me to "put more sugar in your coffee" when I asked a pointed question. That's when I realized he was an asshole who had nothing to teach me. People say things like that (or "yuck"/"yum") to make themselves feel superior. A good word for it is smarmy. It's funny, 'cause my comment here only drew responses from people who needed to justify themselves - no reaction was required. I don't know you. I wasn't talking to you personally. I was only saying that no one likes a braggart.
If particles interact by exchanging particles, how do they interact with the particles they exchange?
At the end of one of her interviews on youtbue, Kelly McGonigal explains that -- paraphrased -- being praised to the face creates an intimate context around the praiser and the praisee, in which it's the praiser that sets the tone and initiates the dynamics. In a way, they find themselves in a position where they evaluate you. This is why taking praise gracefully is not trivial; people being praised usually show bodily signs of stress. It takes a real effort for the praisee not to dismiss or belittle their own achievement, just to get out of those dynamics as soon as possible.
At the end of said interview, the host praised Ms. McGonigal to her face. In response, she drew his attention to the fact that while he was talking, speaking those words of appreciation, she swallowed. The act of her swallowing was a kind of stress-relief (IIRC). (I'm sure we can all relate to choking up slightly when praised to the face.) She highlighted the dynamics of being praised to the face live, mid-interview, through her own reaction.
You may be avoiding sharing your wins with others because you instinctively might want to avoid the situation where others qualify you. In that situation, you experience being the subject of an evaluation, and that -- i.e., being talked about -- might feel like a subordinate position to be in, even if the judging is 100% positive. My remedy is to just yield, lean back, give in, permit the other person to be in control, allow them to have all power in that context, and just bask in the glorious warmth they're sending your way. It can be an experience that you remember for decades after, and you're going to start to crave it. (Peer recognition can be a huge motivator, i.e., doing things for recognition. Whether that's good or bad, is a separate topic :))
Some reading:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/43119265_Envy_and_S...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-evaluation_maintenance_th...
The most painful moment was when I had a close friend almost enjoy the fact my wife had a miscarriage. It was completely insensitive and made me realise that I have no interest in being friends with someone who is willing to compete on something so ridiculous.
Lots of thinking later, and I can now tell the difference between acquaintances and friends. There’s a simple test: acquaintances will be there when you want them to; friends will be there when you don’t want them to, but need them to anyway. An acquaintance would never do that.
Learning to disengage or set firm boundaries in situations where that is happening is one of the most powerful and healthy things one can do.
And you can and should still absolutely cut them out of your life. Let them have each other.
There’s a reason misery loves company.
Additionally, it is normal to accept derisive talk (= banter) from good friends. If a friend doesn't get a promotion, you can be very humoristically negative about it in way that would in no way be okay with a stranger.
So yes, in those ways it is normal to enjoy watching your friends mess up, and it is normal to feel more at ease with it with friends rather than strangers.
However, it is not normal to enjoy seeing your friends fail in life, at all. That goes way beyond schadenfreude and even narcissism, straight into sociopathy.
I think this is just him trying to justify it.
One day, a friend told me about how a founder he knew had raised a round, and I said something like "damn, it's always everyone else" and my friend went "why not just be happy for them? It's not like they're hurting you".
That's when I realized that yes, I could just be happy for them, and that they indeed didn't hurt me, and that I could just be making this an overall happier event by being happy.
Since then, I'm genuinely happy when anyone wins, to the point where I'll complain to people about something that happens to me, they'll say "well if it makes you feel better, that happened to me too", and my response is "why would it make me feel better that my friend also had this bad thing happen to them?", which gets some puzzled "you're right" responses.
I think it is widespread that people feel like this, hence the "if it makes you feel better" response. I think if your friend understands that this isn't a great way to feel, it'll all be OK.
Sometimes people feel alone in their failures. Knowing that something similar has happened to others can help the person feel less alone.
And all of that being said, none of us are perfect. I would hope your friend has at least some redeeming qualities, something you enjoy about him. Otherwise, it sounds like, at least lately, your friendship with him has been taking energy and peace from you and giving you...what? (And I say that not to mean friendships are only about "gaining" something, but they are meant to be mutually supportive with some ebbs and flows.)
Also I've never had much luck with work friends. Work seems to get in the way. These days board games are my best strategy for maintaining friendships. You need some sort of "third place" for maintaining good friendships: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place
Sounds like they kinda suck.
Edit: I saw your other comment, I'm sorry to hear that you are doing through such a hard time. I'm coming out of a multi-year one myself, wiser and stronger than I was before. Rooting for you! :)
I'd say spending time together forms / ends up in bonding, and those friends aren't friends (although the English-American definition is more like 'peers' anyway); they're former friends. People you used to spend time with. If it comes to school and work, there's competition. Lots of it. In the army, not so much.
Opposite to contrary belief, higher rank individuals (except the topmost levels) are at the front line leading the pack. Army personnel have families, but they kill others who also have families — this is not normal for most people. They get desensitised after practice and war in difficult terrains.
I was told by an army lad, his father had instructions to always move forward. If you turn, your own men can shoot you, mistaking you for an enemy.
For example, in board games, there are several types:
- Competitive games: every person for themselves; there’s one winner, everyone else loses
- Co-op games: every human vs. “the game”, often in the form of AI opponents, or environmental conditions; everyone wins or everyone loses
- Team games: X vs. Y players (and sometimes more than two teams); one team wins, everyone else loses
I feel like work is meant to be a co-op game, but just like co-op games, even though you’re supposed to be on the same team, you often still want to feel like “the best”. Not to the point of bringing the whole team down, but to the point you can secretly feel like you carried the team.
In some hostile work environments, it can actually turn into a team game (inter-departmental competition), or even a competitive game (intra-departmental competition). I’ve been in all of these types of companies, and the co-op ones are obviously the best, especially the ones that care more about the elevation of the team over individual success.
In the military, it’s very much a team game. You are clearly on the same team, and if you don’t cooperate with your team, you will (likely) lose. Obviously, with military — particularly in war — there can be actual life and death at stake, which elevates this to an extreme level.
If you see people finding value only in winning, you might want to switch to different gaming friends. Around here, managing the critical mass to play the game is a first collective victory. And there is plenty of congratulations and collective joy to witnessing a game strategy well played. That same strategy that others may think "crushed you". Being able to play with smart players is 100% a blessing.
Taken literally, of course the experience of playing a board game should be fun for everyone, regardless of the outcome.
But if you want to stick to the metaphor, I would agree that if you’re playing board games with sore losers/winners should result in finding new people to play with.
And similarly, if you have coworkers that are only looking out for themselves and their own success, without regard to the success of the team, find a new place to work.
But that’s the point I was trying to make.
The Army was competitive in a fun way. Where it’s fun to beat your friends in PT or to laugh as they trip over. But when it came down to it, we were on the same team and you would help out a friend.
Inversely, not being a team player would get you bullied.
Everybody appreciates getting celebrated. Managers love hearing that their reports are being appreciated. Leadership loves to hear about wins that are normally invisible to them. You're directly benefiting the people around you, and it reflects well on you as someone who cares, pays attention, has empathy, and has a focus on career growth. Maybe it's just because it's normally a behavior associated with senior ICs, but people hear this stuff and start to look to you as an authority and example.
Since then, I put 5 out of 5 on everyone for everything always, and say something nice in all the boxes.
He later told me about how his review went (casually at a conference; he had no idea I was the source), and I fessed up and clarified what I actually meant. The HR process had twisted it to a much more extreme version of what I was getting at, completely undermining the utility of the feedback.
Nowadays, I'm just gonna give perfect scores and if I have feedback that needs to be given, I'll just tell the coworker directly. (And if I'm not comfortable doing that, then the feedback probably isn't important enough.)
You are most certainly right. But whose fault is this? HR and CxO.
Nail that stands, gets the hammer
so you where messing with their real-state i guess
Sounds good? It was, except...most of that bonding was based on lowkey negativity by a set of people who felt powerless, complaining about how others were terrible. Some in this network went down a rabbithole of resentment and are still there. The reality is that yes, there was lots of stuff to be grumpy about.
Rooting for your friends is great. But people sometimes bond over wishing harm for their foes. Shared trauma does that. I personally try to avoid that mindset.
I eventually realised that these interactions weren't joyful... they were easy conversations, but they were also demoralising and lowered my energy. These days I try to "manage" my conversations with people like this by steering the topics and (gently) setting boundaries on what I don't want to talk about.
Yeah this is way too common. And it’s not just trauma which does it. I think it’s its own psychological trap. I think the trap is a self reinforcing cycle of a few thoughts:
1. Other people are bad at things. Look at all the things others do which have flaws! You must be better than all those dolts.
2. You tell yourself you could do something better - but if you try, maybe it’ll have flaws too. Then you’ll be just as bad as anyone else. Uh oh.
3. So you don’t do anything creative, or take responsibility for anything. But you need a reason to tell yourself as to why you’re not doing anything.
4. It must be because other, idiot people stop you. Change is too hard. Doing anything would be “fighting against the system” or something. See point 1.
And the trap is closed. The only way to escape it is to do stuff that you’re bad at. And if you do that, you’ll find all the faults in your own work and feel terrible about yourself.
I think the bottom level of almost any company is packed with people who have this mindset. It’s a disaster on every level - personal and professional. And it’s quite resilient and contagious. People like that are always a little afraid that somebody will call them on it. So they need others to agree with them that staying small is the smart move.
Avoiding them is definitely a smart move. I’ve taken to sometimes needling people like that, just to rattle the cage and see what happens. “You’re so right about those flaws! We’d love your help fixing some of them?” / “I think your idea is wonderful! So what you’re saying is if we got Bob on side, you think we could do it? Let me help - I’ll set up a meeting. With the two of us, I’m sure he’ll come around!”
I generally hate being too positive. But I make an exception for this kind of subtle supportive bullying. This awful mindset can’t survive in the sunlight. It’s fun to see what happens!
“Jealousy” in a non-toxic manner feels kind of right for the task of describing wins that we all know are largely just up to random chance.
Being jealous of someone’s hard work doesn’t really feel the same.
What I rly wanted to say is admitting jealousy vs showing signs of it are two diff things and you guys nailed it. Glad you have a good support group.
I would define a friend as someone with whom you enjoy spending time. There doesn't need to be a goal except to "hang out". Do you really need a friend to "give meaningful feedback on your projects"? The author's conception of a friend, in the article, feels starkly utilitarian, where friendship is a tool for achieving your other ends rather than an end in itself.
If we interpret friends here as work friends, then I think a little jealousy and zero-sumness is natural. The very first benefit mentioned by the author of rooting for your friends is that it "can improve your career". If your work friend's career improves, but yours doesn't, then doesn't that defeat the (author's) purpose?
> It’s deeply believing that a rising tide lifts all boats.
I deeply believe that this is utterly naive.
It's not inherently false—we could make it true, if we really wanted—but it's empirically false, for the obvious reason that those who are lifted tend to be greedy and want to keep all the gains for themselves. Whether that's because power corrupts, because power attracts the corrupt, or some combination of the two, the problem is that those at the top come to feel that they deserve to be at top, that they're better than those who are not at the top and have been rewarded for their superiority, and thus from their perspective it would almost be immoral to "reward" those below who aren't as "good".
> It’s deeply believing that a rising tide lifts all boats.
This is true, but with context. "Growth" and "Comfort" are two different elements of a good friendship. We can replace "rising" with "happy", and the same quote works for comfort.
Are both necessary? Depends on how you define "friendship". If comfort is the only thing, you dog can be a comfortable companion. But for a human friendship to last longer, both must enjoy each other company for longer time horizon, and that needs growth in both. This growth needs not be only in career, but mental too.
With such growth, envy can't come in and corrode the bond.
Well, if we're talking about work-friends, the classic conflict would be when one co-worker is promoted but the other isn't, and indeed the one becomes the other's boss. That's basically a zero-sum game, and it's difficult for a friendship to survive that scenario.
> > It’s deeply believing that a rising tide lifts all boats. > I deeply believe that this is utterly naive.
While I don't fully disagree, I have often seen younger employees fall into the trap of overly chasing individual advantage over collective benefit. In other words, trying to be an all-star rather than a team player. Perhaps this is from schooling, where all that matters is getting an "A", but in the workplace it often results in being disliked and less likely to be promoted.
The opposite of a "success accelerator" hypeman would be someone that's constantly tearing you down, talking bar about you behind your back, and constantly and actively trying to get you to fail. If it's the contents of blog post that helps someone recognize such a person isn't really their friend, why is it even relevant what bit if media helped them come to that realization?
Still, I do want to acknowledge that if I’m in a position to help accelerate a friend’s success, I will. I don’t know whether I’d say I expect my friends to do the same for me since it’s so contextual. At the same time I would expect a certain level of reciprocity if they’re in the position to reciprocate, although I admit I’m struggling to articulate my expectations clearly, since they’re not simply one to one.
Having a cat reall helps though.
For a short time in the 2000s with my wow guild I did but that was different. It was always TeamSpeak so I felt I knew the person v discord(where i only voice chat with irl friends... so far)
I'd love to be able to make that happen. Probably my own confidence is the issue.
Cheerleaders are great if you need reassurance and affirmation. If you want to innovate and push boundaries, I'd argue that competition is a more significant driver.
Competition is great, but there's no reason it needs to be negatively tinged (as in your example). Two people can compete and push themselves hard to come out ahead, but also cheer for each other to do well. After all, if your rival sucks they don't really push you to get better, so cheering for them is in a way cheering for yourself too.
I have a feeling that you're striving in spite of the lack of support, not because of it. And also that your own creativity and persistence is able to turn lemons into lemonade. So whatever your friends gave you, you'd take it and make it work.
I'd say all of that is the complete opposite of what people do that are destined to fail.
I’m guilty of it myself of course, but it seems like there is some kind of naturally adversarial behavior baked into me. It literally just makes things worse is the funny thing, and I already know this. But sometimes I cant stop it. Life would be easier and better if we were all collectively friendly hypemen but alas.
But to be fair, I've felt that vague "skepticism" at my own successes from some of my gal pals too. But at the same time, my friend group that's mostly women will definitely gas each other up more and seemingly show more genuine interest in each other's successes and genuine sympathy in each other's setbacks.
I would add to bias towards praise, but still be honest and judicious. People know when they hear empty words, and it's important to be trustworthy.
I could have emphasized that more.
The world (Internet) is VERY GOOD at telling you how much you suck and most people are susceptible to that. Having someone who believes in you helps you build confidence and drive.
I think my friends are dope af so why wouldn’t I big them up?
It's not easy, at least initially. Jealousy is an emotion that's easy to come by and hard to dismiss. It's also an emotion that makes you unhappy, so learning to feel pride and happiness instead of jealousy made my life immeasurably better. I don't care if it's reciprocal; I do it because it's right for others and it's right for me.
I've always been the hype person for everyone I know and have subsequently been allowed to have an amazing, thriving creative career while I've seen countless jealous, desperate, scarcity minded people fall by the wayside over the years.
Just released an original animated feature film musical where I did most everything myself with help from a few friends I hype https://www.imlivingmylife.com/
No one, I'd be embarrassed.
+1 tho, we could use some more positivity all around. Root for your friends, family, your peers. Hell root for anyone that you have respect for. That's how you live. That's the real W.
Whoever wrote this post is really rocking with the clear human thinking.
I love people like that!!
Friends and strangers who try and aren’t quitters.
I get your point, but we are herd animals. Today distance is bigger than ever so we are more often lonely. Some believe in gods, religions but I rather believe in people and make it a hill I’ll die on.
“This is a message that a lot of people need to hear,” says blogger.
Here’s some memes from 2012 to now.
This is how you end up with systematic institutional corruption in academic departments along with a lot of non-reproducible garbage science. Thus a better strategy is to support people who do good work, regardless of whether they're your 'friends' or not.
Perhaps his point was that he just genuinely liked to be a decent human being instead of rolling into work each day with an attitude of "I'm better than all of you peons, fuck you and your families, may (deity of your choice) condemn you all to death and perpetual hellfire"
I've been in a position where I shouldn't have been before. I too was kind to everyone. Whether or not I was good at my job or role has no effect on basic human decency, or holding the door, saying good morning, or not cutting someone off deliberately in the company parking lot.
There's two kinds of respect - earned, and given. People seem to not understand that, and see no reason why they shouldn't slam the door in the person behind them's face. You can be kind to everyone, it doesn't cost you anything. Give people props when they deserve it, but don't smash the homeless dude on the street's face when you walk by him - he's human too.
You should support those who do good work, and call out those who don't. But you don't have to be an asshole to them, either.
1) friends definition is vague and often based on language. In Italian or English friend is a word that could include for a single person dozens of people, in many Slavic countries you only use that word for your very best closest friends (the one you can count on one hand).
2) being a humble rooter at work has done better for me and many I know than being the star player. I'm the same person, I just give to others credit and never brag about anything. People notice, people like you, people want you around in projects, end up rooting for your advancements too.
- Gore Vidal
Still applies I guess.
Perhaps we can parlay this title into a video game. Or simply an alternate title for Core War.
You might try just doing something different. It was an interesting experience spending the day with people who wanted to talk to me because I was the odd one out—none of them personally knew any programmers or computer scientists and they all had a million questions!
(xkcd.com/149)
This often plays out in the blood sport of academic politics, incidentally.