New Zealand: Wish you were here? | Hacker News Reader

New Zealand: Wish you were here?

startribune.com

52 pointstokenadult68 comments

As someone who's lived nearly my whole life in NZ and considers myself a large part Kiwi, I think they're overdoing this a bit.

- Auckland is not walkable. It's very spread out, and the public transport is awful, so it's not practical to visit many places without a car. It probably helped that they had friends with an apartment overlooking Herne Bay, but that's a pretty expensive neighbourhood; most of us couldn't afford to live there.

- They didn't see a Target or Gap because we don't have them, but NZ certainly does have McDonalds, Burger King, KFC, Subway and a few other multinational fast food joints. They must have been amazingly lucky to avoid them - I'd think it'd be a pretty hard trick to plot a journey that didn't run into any of them.

- You can actually get tomatoes at any time of the year.

A lot of the reasons I left were work-related, which they wouldn't see from a ten-day holiday. Even in Auckland, interesting IT jobs are rarer than you'd like; 99% of the jobs I saw advertised looked to be soulless C++/Java/C# forms-based applications for some internal business thing.

Money's not great either; despite paying a lot more on rent in London now, I'm financially better off than I was in Auckland. Salaries are higher to counter the rent, and most of the rest of the cost of living is not a lot different. Some things are much cheaper; books, for example, cost a fortune in NZ (weirdly, milk as well, despite all the dairy farming).

The nightlife is okay in Auckland but a big pain in the ass to get to/from, unless you can afford to live nearby. The lack of public transport really bites here.

I like the place overall, and I'll always have a soft spot for it, but there's another side to this story that I think they're missing.

You can actually get tomatoes at any time of the year.

I dunno man I paid like $5 for two watery hydroponic tomatoes at New World the other day.

There are an estimated 460 000 New Zealanders living overseas or 14% of the population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealanders

By comparison, there are 6 million Americans, or ~2% of Americans living overseas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emigration_from_the_United_Stat...

If NZ is as great as the author thinks it is he might want to ponder why so many people have left.

There are other factors involved. There's really easy migration to Australia which has a stronger economy, it's common for people to have other passports so it's easier to move elsewhere because of that too, there's less of a belief that we're the greatest country in the world that could bias American emigration. America is also a big place, so people can move around within the country fairly easily if conditions for any particular group of workers in any particular place is bad, which isn't the case here.

It's not quite as simplistic as you make it seem.

In addition to this, some folks get Australian citizenship by getting the easier NZ citizenship first, as it's easier for NZ citizens to become Australian citizens. This would add a little bit to the 'percentage overseas' issue.

This is outdated, I believe. These days there is no easy way for NZ citizens to become Australian citizens. However they can still live and work in Australia, but remain second class in various ways, such as not having access to many types of social welfare benefits and not being able to vote.

There is also the fact that it's very good to be a skilled worker in the US.

If someone wants to leave the US and move elsewhere, they need to be a skilled worker to make it happen. Poor Americans tend to be a net drain on society, so other countries don't usually want them.

But if you are a skilled worker, the economics make it a lot better to live in the US. I recently considered moving to London, but the economics just made it ridiculous [1]. I would have taken a 30-40% nominal pay cut relative to the US (i.e., convert my salary from GBP to USD, it's 30-40% less). The UK was also far more expensive when I visited - compare a 1-2 zone Oyster card (112GBP unlimited monthly) to an unlimited metrocard (104 USD), or the price of brunch (10GBP vs 10USD).

[1] I would have been willing to take a moderate pay cut just to live somewhere different, but the cost of living in London was just too high.

I left. I'm in London now.

It's easy to find out why, even in the context of the article. You see what the rest of the world has, and want to take part. Want to work on building a Boeing 777? You can't do it in New Zealand. Sure, you can work at small companies building small planes, but if you want to be working "world scale", you have to be where all the people are.

To relate back to HN, there are a few small startups, but the market is different in New Zealand. As a nation of small businesses, about 95% of the population work for a company with 50 or fewer staff. If your business involves selling to other businesses at scale, there are comparatively far fewer opportunities to do this.

NZ would be a great place to put a remote team (Mozilla have one in Auckland) and Kiwis love the idea a company will pay to fly them around the world every now and then. Even better, if you pay them in USD or GBP, it generally works out favourably for both sides.

Seriously America is huge you could adventure around the states seeing a bunch of different lifestyles, and environments without ever having to get a passport. In that sense perspectives are very, very different between the US and NZ. You've really got to compare it to, moving out of state. How many people in the US move around states for jobs/lifestyles etc ?

When you grow up in New Zealand, it's almost a rite of passage to do your "OE" - overseas experience. It's part of the culture to go and explore the world. And of course young 20 somethings travelling meet other foreign young 20 somethings and it's pretty easy to see where that stat comes from. "Your country or mine? (the girl usually wins)"

I grew up in a small town, lived in Auckland, now live in Toronto, Canada. The Greater Toronto area is the same population as all of New Zealand. Is it any better or worse ? No. It's just different. It all depends on what floats your boat. Are you an adventure sports junkie ? New Zealand is pretty much heaven on earth (I'm guessing Colorado would be awesome if you dug winter and summer sports together). Do you like bustling metropolis ? Well Toronto kinda rocks - Canadian and Kiwi philosophies are very close (although BC is far closer in life style to New Zealand, than over in Ontario)

There is so many factors for what's good in a country - a lot are dependent on the invididual. What will be one persons heaven could be another persons "meh", quality of living, friendships, relationships, career choices, sports, food quality, environment yadda yadda.

As a New Zealander living overseas, in my case, the pull to go home is very strong and ever present. And I will say this when I finally move home, I will never, ever complain that it's freezing in winter.

New Zealanders travel. The majority of those people will return. This statement is based on experience, not data. Everyone seems to leave, and all seem to return.

Edit: It sounded like I was disagreeing with your figures, I wasn't.

Milk in New Zealand is traded internationally. From what I gather, countries that New Zealand exports milk to are willing to pay a higher price than what they get selling it back home.

Note: These are just some vague memories when I drunkenly discussed the problem with some Fonterra execs.

I've heard a similar thing - that explains why we pay an apparently high price in NZ, but it doesn't explain to me why it's significantly cheaper in the UK. I can't see why the price here doesn't raise to this alleged international price as well.

In most countries milk production is heavily subsidised or price controlled as it produces measurable health benefits to children.

In New Zealand this is not the case - farmers don't get direct subsidies, though they do have a novel tax system around stock management. Even with this they can produce milk significantly cheaper than we pay, but Fonterra's essentially a monopoly and isn't strongly regulated, so we end up paying a lot more than other countries.

As a New Zealander who grew up in Australia and now lives in the US, let me start by saying what I love about New Zealand:

1) The culture is for the most part pretty awesome. Friendly people, love of sport, lots of folks with gumption and can-do attitude, appreciation of nature, etc etc.

2) One of the most beautiful countries in the world.

3) Politically well-centred, and doesn't brown-nose the way Australia does.

Now let me enumerate my issues with New Zealand:

1) Not the paradise this article would have you believe. I feel a lot safer in California than I ever did when I was living in New Zealand.

2) A bit of a backwater - so far from anything, very socially isolated, living in a small pond basically.

3) A negative/tall-poppy attitude. Lots of complaining, "make sure you know your place" feeling.

The entrepreneurs I've worked with from NZ were all amazing people, but being there was holding them back.

Overall - there's no way I can imagine moving back there anytime soon, but I do love it as a country.

>1) Not the paradise this article would have you believe. I feel a lot safer in California than I ever did when I was living in New Zealand.

Wow, never would have guessed that. Could you elaborate?

Never had an issue in the South Island, but living in Wellington, and when I visited Auckland, I had surprising confrontations on numerous occasions.

Your milage may vary. I live in Auckland, retain a presence in Wellington and feel ridiculously safe in both.

I lived, stayed and travelled all over the USA and felt a lot less safe there by comparison with NZ, UK, Canada and Australia. South Africa on the other hand was off the scale dangerous.

We have our issues, as all locations do, but it's a marvelous existence, and a great place to consider for start-ups.

As an Australian i felt far safer in NYC and San Fran than say in Melbourne or Sydney, which went against my expectations. I think both Australia and NZ are extremely tolerant of youth crime which is a big part of the problem. That combined with limited legal protection for those acting in self defence means you often feel like criminals and gangs have greater rights than ordinary citizens.

I think it depends heavily on which parts of the cities you visit. Tourists don't tend to visit the slummy areas.

That combined with limited legal protection for those acting in self defence means you often feel like criminals and gangs have greater rights than ordinary citizens.

This is nonsense. You have the right to use equal force in return, and you are expected to retreat if possible. What it means is you can't shoot someone who's only threatening you with their fists.

And if you're talking about gangs, Australian gangs are not a patch on US gangs - US self defence laws have certainly not given them less gang influence than here.

> I think it depends heavily on which parts of the cities you visit. Tourists don't tend to visit the slummy areas.

I was walking the streets of Brooklyn and Queens in not-so-touristy areas and didn't run into any problems or feel threatened. I got the feeling that there might have been dangerous people around, but if you didn't mess with them they wouldn't mess with you.

> This is nonsense. You have the right to use equal force in return, and you are expected to retreat if possible. What it means is you can't shoot someone who's only threatening you with their fists.

As a somewhat pudgy software engineer who hasn't been in so much as a scuffle since primary school, knowing that I can "use my fists" against a street hardened, violent thug does not exactly leave me feeling empowered. And while I would not like to shoot anyone whatever the circumstances, I would like to feel I could use a firearm to deter someone from violently assaulting me.

> And if you're talking about gangs, Australian gangs are not a patch on US gangs

Your right, there is a big difference. Gangs in the US appear to be well organized, hierarchical, structured operations, "gangs" in Australia are more like packs of disaffected youth roaming the streets looking for trouble. And I may be way off here, but while the US might have a lot of gang violence, it seems to be largely gang-on-gang violence. The incidents of random, senseless, violent attacks against innocent bystanders by violent youths and thugs - usually without any other motive such as theft - is a bewildering common occurrence in Australia, and a well-known and widely talked about issue in contemporary Australian culture. Here is a very recent example which is typical of the kind of stories that we hear about every few days: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/mans-neck-slashed-...

So you're subscribing to the idea that carrying a knife or gun is going to help? But more importantly, note this part of your quote: "hasn't been in so much as a scuffle since primary school". What, exactly, do you feel you need to defend yourself against? You want to bring sidearms into a nation to protect yourself from 'not so much as a scuffle since primary school'? The US has major problems with handguns and crime, but the genie is out of the bottle there.

The incidents of random, senseless, violent attacks against innocent bystanders by violent youths and thugs - usually without any other motive such as theft - is a bewildering common occurrence in Australia, and a well-known and widely talked about issue in contemporary Australian culture

I might be wrong here, but the 'random, senseless attacks' were a large part of NYC until the very recent efforts in making the city much safer. It's not something that is peculiar to the Australian psyche.

But yes, around nightclub districts there is a problem. Even your linked article it's talking about the heart of a nightclub district at 2:30am. But in reality street crime is no worse here than anywhere else. I think you're falling into the trap that Australians so like to fall into, claiming that the country is always going downhill and is worse than anywhere. It's like the people that claim our country is the most racist in the world. Sure, we have some problems with racism, but what countries don't? Whenever we have these discussions, there's almost never any actual comparison to contemporary countries - it's habit for us just to assume we're the worst (because like the US, we like to think we're #1, it seems :)

It's actually really hard to accurately compare crime directly between countries (excluding homicide). A punch-on between a couple of guys can end up with five charges being laid in Australia (ascending charges, one of them will stick), and is listed as 5 charges in the stats. NZ does this as well, but not many other places do. In contrast the US doesn't even bother publishing those stats, they'll generally only publish aggravated assaults, which are with either a weapon or resulting in severe injury.

Definitely agree here. There's a violent undercurrent in New Zealand that you'd never see in 10 days. Gangs & drugs are also a big problem.

Tell us more? I'm sure I'm not the only considering NZ as a candidate for future residence. Getting inside info is invaluable.

Same for me.

It really depends on where you are. There is a lot of gang activity in the more impoverished areas - even though NZ is a welfare state the benefits are set at a starvation level, which leads to the associated crime.

It would pay to ask locals what they think of an area before moving there. In general it's fairly safe though, the big gangs are more interested in selling pot than getting locked up. The youth gangs are full of angry teenagers as usual, but they're not a big issue. You can walk down the nightlife areas at 3am and not get mugged unless you go down a dark alley.

My background - expat brit who moved here for high school, been here for 16 years now. Lived in the lower north island for all of that time.

WTF. I don't get how people say Auckland is unsafe. I've lived here for pretty much my whole life and I have never run into any trouble. I'm often in town on a Friday/Saturday night usually till around 4am and I've never gotten into a fight or anything. I usually walk home by myself and have never had any trouble. People don't carry weapons here, and if you do ever get jumped or whatever, your not going to end up in hospital.

If I compare it Melbourne (where I lived last year) I had probably more trouble with flipped out P heads then I ever have had in my whole life. There was multiple occasion where I thought we were going to be jumped by Samoan/Tongan people (maybe it was a coincidence but it was every time) and I found that if you talked to them, most of them were from South Auckland so after I got talking to them they seemed to leave us alone. But once again, nothing like this has happened before in NZ.

You honestly never see gang people around, you never see people cracked out of their mind walking around Queen St/K Rd.

I've only been in to LA once but I imagine Auckland would be a lot safer due to the fact that it's a much smaller compact city and there's no guns here. Plus the number of cops around has literally quadrupled in the last few months from what I noticed. It's kind of annoying cause they literally pull over 50% of cars driving through K Rd but hey whatever least it's safe.

It's interesting that you feel safer in California.

As a New Zealander visiting America I felt quite unsafe just seeing police offers with guns holstered. Just the idea that someone standing nearby could decide to outright kill me if they decided to dislike me made me very uneasy.

In New Zealand, I could (though I obviously would not) walk up and punch a police officer in the face, and while I could reasonably expect to have the police officer respond in kind, there is no chance that I would fail to live through the experience.

I didn't feel confident that this was the case in the US.

The article neglected to say about Auckland that it's a huge overpriced real estate market. And the bubble doesn't look like popping because it's propped up by massive immigration from Asia, previously Korea and Taiwan, but now especially mainland China. There's always more international students who'll rent the apartments and immigrants who'll buy the houses.

The last 5-yearly census held in 2006 showed (http://www.waitakere.govt.nz/abtcit/ps/pdf/2006AucklandCensu...) the percentage Asians in Auckland is 19%. It was maybe 1 or 2% only 25 yrs ago. The next census is due in Feb 2013 (delayed by 2 yrs because of the Jan 2011 earthquake in Christchurch), but based on impressions during my last trip back earlier this year, I'm guessing it could be up to 25%. That's quite a quick change in the ethnic makeup of a city.

When the NZ government ran out of money in 1991, they cancelled welfare benefits for anyone aged under 25. Suddenly, all these unemployed "kids" shifted back to their parents houses, and landlords had to half their rents to get tenants. To appease landowners and force those rents and house prices back up, the government opened the gates to Asian immigration bigtime.

Because of the automatic right of Australians and New Zealanders to live and work in each others country, many Asian immigrants move/d to Australia's big cities of Sydney and Melbourne after becoming a NZ citizen after 3 to 5 years of residence. That 19% Asian population of Auckland is only the tip of the iceberg of the immigrants who came.

overpriced real estate market...the bubble doesn't look like popping because it's propped up by massive immigration from Asia

Sounds more like there are structural reasons why real estate is priced higher than you expect. That doesn't make it overpriced, let alone a bubble.

New Zealanders buy houses Instead if other investments (to the frustration of numerous finance ministers). The housing market dipped only fractionally with recent world events, and basically sits where it was in 2007 at the moment. Kiwis love houses.

The Economist mag doesn't think so: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&#...

As a Yank in New Zealand, here are the things that I enjoy:

- The people are friendly. Hitchhiking works; particularly on the South Island.

- Everywhere is beautiful. I spend 5 hours in an open-pit coal mine. In NZ, even the coal mines are pretty.

Things I don't like:

- Racism. It's not hateful, but it's omnipresent.

- Sexism. There are boy jobs and girl jobs. This is, apparently, improving; and I haven't seen disparate pay for identical work.

How to come here: Use Helpx.net. Exchange 4 hours of work a day for food and accommodation. Almost any kind of work, in almost anywhere in the country. I've been helpxing for 7 months, hitchhike between hosts, and barely spend a penny.

I suspect you encountered racism outside of Auckland? I have been surprised by attitudes in the South Island, where non-white people seemed to surprise the locals.

Oh, no; I've seen just as much up North as down South. I'm not talking so much about severe racism; just the more everyday "Maori are lazy, the Asians steal our jobs and our houses, the French are poor workers..." I guess I should call it racial prejudice, rather than racism. "I'm-not-racist-but" racism.

New Zealand is a pretty awesome place! I left my home of Scotland to do a years backpacking around NZ and ended up staying for 14 months. I didn't want to leave but my visa was running out so I jumped across to Australia where I'm now working on my residency.

What I loved about NZ is that you're always close to nature and amazing sights. I climbed a glacier, I walked through national parks and I visited some amazing beaches.

Kiwis are some of the nicest people I've ever met, though some of the younger generation seem to be similar to those UK.. lots of binge drinking and fighting.

Auckland gets a lot of bad press, it really is a lot different than the rest of NZ but one thing I will say: If you want to party then Auckland is a great place to do it! The bars don't seem to ever close!

There are some downsides though, Internet access in most places sucked ass and was expensive. Wages are low and the weather wasn't too great, though I'm used to that being from Scotland.

Why haven't you applied for a permanent residence?

It's pretty hard to get and I couldn't make any decent money to get the ball rolling. I've applied in Australia now though and I think once I've been a resident here for a while then I can go back :)

Oh, that's bad. I thought it's may an option for you, because you have already been there for a while. The rules for getting a visa in NZ are really strict then. What are the major differences between Australia and New Zealand from your viewpoint? I heard that Australia is more US-like and NZ more Europe oriented, but thats it. It would be cool if you could share some experiences :) Thanks

Around 3 years ago I was living in Auckland and wanted to escape the city for winter. Hearing people moan about the weather and cold was getting boring and bringing me down. A friend told me about a town called Wanaka and it sounded like a fun place so off I went. It was the best decision I've made yet. Even the police are friendly here. For example I once ran out of gas and while parked on the side of the road a cop pulled over and gave me a ride to the gas station and back. During the ride he told me how much he loved his job. I've found my new home.

I have never heard Auckland described as walkable. It's easily the worst city I have been to in that regard, unless you have a car, you're pretty much stuck. It's a pretty flattering article about home I'd say.

The public transport has definitely improved in the last few years but I agree. Unless you live/work in the CBD you'll have a difficult time without a car.

"... I have never heard Auckland described as walkable. It's easily the worst city I have been to in that regard, unless you have a car, you're pretty much stuck ..."

Disagree. Spent a week walking around Auckland city last year along Hobson St, Beach Rd, Quay St, Khyber Pass Rd, Parnell Rd, Symonds St. This is pretty much the outer 5km boundary of Auckland. When I was tired or needed to be somewhere fast, I caught a (free) bus. Great city.

The area you describe is nowhere near the outer edge. It's not even the edge of the CBD. Keep in mind that Auckland covers a vast area of nearly 5000 square km. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auckland_Council There are centres all over the place, north, south, east, west, and most are worth visiting and have very different tastes to them. I came off very negative in my first post, I love Auckland, but it's chronic lack of decent transport options is problematic.

Edit: typo

"... The area you describe is nowhere near the outer edge. It's not even the edge of the CBD. Keep in mind that Auckland covers a vast area of nearly 5000 square km ..."

When you put it like that, yes. I'm from Melbourne where the metro area is a 50km N/E/W arc from the CDB. What allowed me to get around in the 30-40km distance I was from Uni was a combo of train, car & tram. The rest I walked.

True. I lived in Melbourne last year, and although the transport has way better compared to Auckland, I don't really miss it. I live in Ponsonby and I still find I can get around pretty easily without a car. You still sorta need one if you got friends who aren't that close to the CBD but I'm quite lucky that the majority of my friends are in the same area, so its usually a 5-15 min walk to anywhere.

I can walk from Queen St to my house in 25mins usually (and vice versa) which is I find is usually faster then catching a bus. Parking is a pain and a rip in town so walking is fine by me. Also you save $10 taxing home from town on a Fri/Sat night.

One thing I don't miss about Melbourne is that is actually easy to get home on a Friday/Saturday night from the City. Your more likely to win Lotto then get a cab, so your only option is to wait till 5am to get the first train of the day or if your lucky find a bus which drops you miles away from home but at least you can get home.

I'm a huge fan of Flight of the Conchords...having spent time living in both NZ and Australia made the show a lot funnier. I didn't realise how much I liked NZ until I left. I'm in Oz now, originally from Los Angeles. I feel much safer now that I've left, disagree with @diiq, I personally experienced more racism in both America and Australia. Never plan on going back to America except to visit family, wish I left much earlier than I did. Main reason for leaving though is because I am afraid of what the US government has become and will turn into in 5-10 years, politics in America is so incredibly backwards, and the people don't seem to care or notice what is happening.

I live here in New Zealand and unfortunately I'm too depressed to enjoy it. The terrible weather doesn't help. On that note, I'd love to meet any HN folks in Auckland. I'll use this thread as an opportunity to reach out.

erm, is this a joke? If its not I am a kiwi living abroad who is in the country right now (briefly). If you want to catch up I will be coming through Auckland in the next few weeks.

NZ is an extraordinarily picturesque country filled with sweet but naive people. As a small-town kiwi boy I have had my mind blown in the last few years traveling and working in some of the poorest parts of the world. The really difficult thing is coming back and trying to tell people there is more to life than the frequently changing weather conditions or the latest All Blacks result

We may can meet in November, because I move over :) (I'm in Germany right now)

Huh? The weather has been pretty damn good for the last 2 weeks. Heaps of sunshine and I've noticed it's actually getting really warm lately so some days you can walk around outside with just a Tshirt, which is pretty cool for Winter.

Hit me up if you wanna meet up.

THere is a culture in New Zealand of after leaving University going overseas to "See the world" (their OE: Overseas Experience). Many highly educated people end up staying there because of the more interesting/higher paying jobs.

However, after they start a family, it's fairly common for people to want to move back to New Zealand as it's seen as a great place to raise children. When people come back, they've acquired a large amount of experience from other places.

Based on the number of kiwi accents I hear living in Perth: apparently not.

The worst thing about New Zealand is that our national sport makes no sense. I've had to explain rugby to a few foreigners and it's a challenge. Still, it's nice to be the best in the world at something.

What's so hard to explain about rugby? It's no worse than most others; try explaining gridiron to a total novice (ie. most Kiwis) or soccer (why is that player lying on the ground pretending to be injured?).

Simple: It's like NFL, without the masses of padding.

Rugby's played all over the place.

If you're wondering if there's a typo in the article, we say "tomahto", not "tomayto", much like the Brits.

Actually, you say "tehmuhtew", mich lek the kewees.

Actlly, wee sy tmato, wthout th xtra vwls.

ixsillint

He's right, New Zealand is gorgeous. I am fortunate enough to live here and I really appreciate it.

How knows Clojure/Java and wants to live in Auckland?

We'll help. Ping me at colin taylor at gmail.

Nature + robots: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4wEkZZ3YL0

It turns out -- US law is enforced in NZ, by ... the FBI (Megaupload) so no, I don't wish I was there.

I agree (some seem not to). However the courts are whittling away the crown case, and both the police and the FBI have got explaining to do. This current government brown noses the US somewhat but compared the other countries, we are positively independent.

I plan to go to New Zealand in 2 months and live there for one year :)

I did exactly this last winter, spent 6 months living and working in Queenstown for clients back home in Melbourne. It was some of the best time I've spent traveling.

Ah cool, I want to work there for a while and will apply for a work visa. Maybe I'll stay there. If I won't get a work visa then I'll go to another country :)

Reply on news.ycombinator.com