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Comment by jasonthorsness | Hacker News Reader

I have kids in middle and high school, and this is all getting figured out in real time. I think we're going to end up with a system that requires personal trust, physical presence, paper tests, handwritten work. Maybe it's for the best; I've been disappointed with most "technology in the classroom" efforts. It all seems worse than paper and pencil which was fine for hundreds of years. Nowadays though handwriting is harder for everyone; me included.

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I really liked the handwritten bluebook essays we did in my “old school” style history class. Zero emphasis on flowery language or coherent structure really, 100% emphasis on regurgitating all you knew on the Triple Entente or whatever the prompt was, which is the point of history class after all. You’d be citing the assigned readings anyhow so that wasn’t even necessary.

And of course, no way to cheat out of it but to learn the damned thing.

It makes no sense to destroy the productivity of the entire system to prevent the minority from cheating its already feasible to impose restrictions such that you may sus out who didn't learn and thus fail them without treating the entire class like fort knox

Based on some ananecdotal evidence, it is not a minority cheating. One professor I know has exactly 1 person in a class who isn’t cheating. It’s blatantly obvious that everyone else is using AI and most are not even checking the output before uploading assignments.

My understanding is that cheaters aren't necessarily a minority. In some classes they can be a large majority. The more they get away with it and see others get away with it, the more numerous and bold they get.

I can definitely believe this. We’re in a pretty clear epidemic of people who don’t have a functioning moral compass.

If a large majority cheats than the people that don’t get severely punished. At some point survival needs kick in

Indeed. It’s why most people just follow orders or otherwise behave in compliance. Doing the right thing is often not rewarded in the immediate, if at all. It’s usually easier just to join the majority in behaviour.

Indeed - and it is not just a matter of becoming more bold: when the system has become corrupted, you will be trampled underfoot if you do not go along with the flow.

I think what’s unspoken here is that this isn’t an AI problem, AI is one component of a multiplicative shit show.

Among other issues: They can’t read effectively, they can’t pay attention (which is related to the above), they have largely only experienced classes that value right answers not thinking, they have mental health problems, their teachers passed many of them because of said mental health problems, oh and both because of and as a result of the above they are glued to devices.

I teach a course that is totally team based. Six students in a room working. I’ve had students sit in the room with their teammates, and have three screens out none of them on class related work. They tried to claim that was necessary for their mental health. That’s fine, but if it is then this class is not for you.

Given the above don’t get me wrong, students aren’t to blame. They are a product of their environment. I teach at what most would call a top US school. The top students are the same, but the median has slid badly. Our society is not preparing them to learn or think.

A very large percentage aren't there to uphold some notion of academic integrity. They're there to hand over wads of cash and do whatever else they need to do to get the credentials that they need to get some particular job (or rather, any white-collar job these day). Many of them don't care about the subject - only a small subset of students actually end up in the fields they study - even in STEM, many will go to finance if they can. The ones at the higher levels looking for that golden job stand to lose lifetime millions in earning (and for some, a green card) if they don't do well. The ones just looking for any job just need to scrape through. They don't come from the academic system, they won't stay there, they don't respect it or even want to be there and have no relationship with the institution or its staff other than a begrudging financial one and an adversarial educational one.

Universities for their part were handed a poisoned chalice by governments demanding Shiny Modern Economy things like "50% of people should have degrees". Comply, and make scads of cash by gradually selling off credibility over decades. Refuse and be crushed into obscurity by those who take the deal (and by the way, all these vocational schools are universities now).

These days I can type faster than I can hand-write, but it used to be the other way around and I don't think my productivity was destroyed.

I’m not sure outsourcing every function of education to SaaS products like we’ve been doing the last 25 years ever made the system more productive

Definitely not and the distractions kids face with phones and laptops are insane

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