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Comment by hastur | Hacker News Reader

Thinkpads have an understated, timeless design, superior to almost all competition, Macs included. The only distinguishing quality of Macs is their built quality - but that's not exactly a good reason to buy an ugly laptop.

Of course, most people have pretty childish tastes and prefer shiny things. But I guess de gustibus non est disputandum.

[And yes, I do feel like I have a bit too much karma... ;]

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There's nothing quite like reading a post with the words de gustibus non est disputandum while the poster debates matters of taste.

Right, but you may be aware that Friedrich Nietzsche would have said all discussions are about taste.

as just a reader on this thread, am I being asked to judge whether Nietzsche trumps a Latin proverb?

This is a hard one, and I would need some more evidence. Don't you have a steve jobs quote?

I think Nietzsche meant that either you are talking about objective known facts and there is no discussion, facts just are (or not); or, in the most common case, you are talking about subjective ideas, feelings, opinions, etc, and these are just other names for taste.

So both are right, we should not be discussing taste and we are deemed to only discuss about taste.

I'll let some other HNmate complement with a Steve Jobs quote, if they wish.

Do thinkpads still have those terrible trackpointy things in the middle of the keyboard?

That's not timeless design. That's a timeless pice of crap!

Now the MacBook Pro trackpad... Fingers fly on that glass.

Most have a nipple and a pad.

That "terrible track pointy thing" keeps your fingers on the home row. It might not be for you but I for one like not having to constantly move from keyboard to trackpad while using my computer.

Well, that's not for me. I have RSI and track points give me terrible cramps.

On the other hand, with a properly configured (tap to click) glass trackpad that problem goes away.

If both a trackpad and a trackpoint are available, I always use the trackpoint. I feel like I have better control with it while the trakpad makes me sloppy.

Know why that is? Because their pads are goddamn terrible. Every time I see a mac vs. pc argument it gets down to the mac user saying 'it's because of the trackpad' and the pc user saying 'I don't need no trackpad'. well.. there might be a reason for that you know.

I love the TrackPoint. The first thing I do on any ThinkPad I get is disable the trackpad in the BIOS, because it's completely unnecessary when you have a TrackPoint. It's better than every other pointing instrument I've tried, including stand-alone mice (except for gaming) and trackpads (the MacBook trackpads included).

Once you get used to the TrackPoint, you'll realize what a piece of crap the MacBook trackpad is.

This is of course an ultimate bike-shedding topic, but I'll add my .02 anyway:

With a multi-touch extension like jiTouch that lets you configure your own per-app multi-touch gestures, the large trackpad (especially external trackpads) are no-debate the most versatile "mouse" alternative.

I have many keyboard shortcuts mapped to gestures for PyCharm, Sublime and Xcode that let me do very cool things during specific workflows (think: debugging, deployment, etc). I've only been using it (and Macs in general) since November but it's the first time i don't totally loathe having to move my hand from the keyboard.

》Once you get used to the TrackPoint, you'll realize what a piece of crap the MacBook trackpad is

Ooooooh no you won't. Sorry Wintermute, but you're speaking from a very, very small niche market. In my experience a huge majority of people overwhelmingly prefer the mac trackpad for all conceivable uses. Two-finger scroll is a killer app.

> In my experience a huge majority of people overwhelmingly prefer the mac trackpad for all conceivable uses.

In my experience, a huge majority of people don't even know what a TrackPoint is, let alone give it a shot.

I won't deny that this is because Lenovo's advertising is nonexistent. Apple has done an excellent job over the last 5 years of convincing the general public that they have the best hardware on the market. And although I personally relish the unchanging ThinkPad design, I can see how many people would find it to be anachronistic in the 21st century.

> Two-finger scroll is a killer app.

I've had 2 finger scroll with the TrackPoint for years, and it's a lot better than the trackpad way - my right index finger moving the TrackPoint and my right thumb holding down the middle mouse button. My fingers stay on the home row, and I use my left thumb for the space bar and my right thumb stays on the mouse buttons at most times. I've tried the MacBook "two-finger scroll" method, and it just breaks my train of thought to have to move my hand back and forth from the trackpad to the keyboard.

In fact, I like the ThinkPad keyboard so much that I have the USB model for use with my desktop.

Not really, no.

I use a ThinkPad E520 at work. Every day. For 8 hours+.

I like the TrackPoint. I use the TrackPoint. I think I'm fairly proficient at navigating with it. But the only reason for using it, in my opinion, is because of how bad the ThinkPad's trackpad is.

I'll take my MBP's trackpad over Lenovo's trackpoint any day of the week. It's faster in most cases and much more accurate. It's just better.

You'll be happy to hear that the X1 Carbon has a new trackpad, which has been described by Notebookreview as "Oh my! Best touchpad surface ... ever!". The gizmodo reviewer: "Using the trackpad, was the first time I've ever done multitouch gestures on Windows and liked it."

As both a Linux and Mac user, I'm happy a PC manufacturer is finally getting it.

That timeless design isn't exactly timeless since they messed with the keyboard [1] [2].

[1] http://blog.laptopmag.com/thinkpad-type-off-is-lenovos-new-i...

[2] http://blog.lenovo.com/products/why-you-should-give-in-to-th...

"Of course, most people have pretty childish tastes and prefer shiny things."

Not to feed the troll, but that is a pretty childish thing to say.

'People who have different taste to me are childish'. Downvoted.

That's a little unfair. Mac's have absolutely fantastic design, so do Thinkpads. Thinkspads have that no-nonsense business aesthetic down pat, no argument about it.

But they are an equal footing in the same way a Jaguar E-Type and a Jeep are both iconic designs.

I'm not disagreeing. ThinkPads are awesome machines. But Macs have a second mouse button. Had for ages, now. Their mice still suck, though – but the trackpads are great.

That was the topic of discussion, I think. I certainly didn't mean to imply that Macs are better than ThinkPads.

>Thinkpads have an understated, timeless design, superior to almost all competition, Macs included. The only distinguishing quality of Macs is their built quality - but that's not exactly a good reason to buy an ugly laptop

A Mac is an ugly laptop? Compared to a Lenovo? In what universe?

Is there a parallel universe in which Apple laptops do not win all the design awards and are generally and widely considered the best looking by plain folks and designers alike?

>But I guess de gustibus non est disputandum.

Oh, the irony.

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