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Comment by ysavir | Hacker News Reader

I think this is one of those ideas that sounds good on paper but breaks down in practice.

One immediate problem that comes to mind is that you need a smartphone to take public transit. So if there's a teen without a smartphone, they can't take the bus, nor can someone who's phone died, etc.

One of the amazing things of the current system, as simple as it is, is that it's predictable and doesn't require coordination. You can walk to a bus stop and know that a bus will arrive and take you where you expect to go, same as the last time you've taken it and the time before that. You don't need to look up a map to see what today's route is, or to see where the stop is, or to let the bus know you're waiting for you. You just show up at the bus stop and the rest just happens in a predictable and reliable fashion.

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> One of the amazing things of the current system, as simple as it is, is that it's predictable and doesn't require coordination.

In many cities, the exact opposite of that has been true in my experience. I’ve waited at bus/train stops only for it to be 20+ min late or never show up multiple times per week. The unpredictability makes it infeasible as a means of transportation to getting to work or anything time sensitive (e.g., sporting event or show downtown). This is a much bigger problem in smaller cities with rudimentary public transit, but I’ve also experienced it in larger cities like Philadelphia.

My few attempts to take a bus in San Diego lead me to believe the schedule is for entertainment purposes only.

IME this is only a problem really in American cities because we put as close to zero effort into public transit as possible. We just plop buses on the road and expect that to do something.

I did also have this experience with the London underground during strikes, but it wasn't a surprise and we could still see when trains would arrive. So, much less unpredictable.

It’s a very American thing to do. Barely fund an essential public service and then cry about how privatization solves all the problems created by that neglect.

We spent 2.5trillion on the military last year. But the minute someone talks about putting money into things that benefit the general population it’s like “where’s the money for free healthcare come from, Bernie bro?” “Can’t give kids free lunch, they need skin in the game” “can’t have free education, something something bootstraps”

Not just America. Europe is not just big cities and Swiss, it happens in Europe too, especially as cities get smaller.

> you need a smartphone to take public transit

Life in China these days does not support not having a smartphone.

Renting a shared bike, using a public Wi-Fi, ordering at a restaurant, literally everything requires an SMS confirmation now. There are even automated convenience stores that require scanning a QR code to enter. App-based mobile payments (Wechat/Alipay) is pretty much the only payment method ever used. Cash and cards are almost never seen.

One challenge with the SMS thing is when I travel from US to Europe I fairly routinely get a local SIM and turn off my US number.

Yeah I absolutely hate the SMS thing.

I usually use Google Fi for almost all international travel (free roaming almost everywhere) but I need an additional local SIM in China because most of the SMS confirmation apps there only support +86 numbers.

Mostly yes but,

I spent ~2 months traveling in Chongqing in 2023, most of the time without a SIM. You can get into most public wifis with a bit of scanning and mac spoofing. All public transport still accepted cash (or transit card) and was extremely cheap. Even if some shops no longer accept cash, there will always be ones that do. Not planning on going back anytime soon but if I ever do, I would not be a fan of requiring internet to deal with public transport.

> So if there's a teen without a smartphone, they can't take the bus, nor can someone who's phone died, etc.

I feel very strongly that if a teenager is old and responsible enough to take the bus on their own, they are old and responsible enough for a smartphone. Furthermore, it's actively harmful to send your kids out into the world without the kinds of modern tools that would make them safer and more independent.

As for "phone died," well... just find a place to recharge it. It's not particularly difficult these days and I can't actually remember the last time my phone died on me when I needed it.

OP is a really cool demonstration of what we can do when everyone carries a computer in their pocket. Uber in the US has something similar with airport shuttles. Why should we handicap new, shiny things to make them usable without a phone?

> Why should we handicap new, shiny things to make them usable without a phone?

(a) Not everyone has a (smart) phone.

(b) Not everyone can use a (smart) phone.

(d) Not everyone can afford a phone.

(e) Not everyone wants to upgrade their phone to use the newest shiny things.

(f) Not everyone can upgrade their phone (see (d)).

(g) Not everyone opts to put (third-party) apps on their smart phone.

(h) Not all apps are built with accessibility in mind (see (b)).

(i) Some folks are concerned about mass surveillance (see (g)).

(j) Sometimes phones get stolen.

(k) Sometimes phones get broken.

(l) Sometimes phones get bricked.

(m) Sometimes phones get hacked.

(n) Sometimes phone get locked out.

(o) Sometimes apps stop working.

(p) Sometimes cell service goes offline (see Hurricane Helene).

As a forty-something semi-retired electrician, the following apply to me:

(c) I own a cell phone, but NEVER leave the house with it (effectively a landline, but less expensive). When my city recently began requiring an app for public street parking, I simply stopped paying for parking (it's only a $16 fine, unless you are handicapped == free).

(e) The only thing that causes me to update my phone is when the battery swells up (typically around eight years). Otherwise I don't even update the original OS.

(g) Flat out, I refuse to use your app

(i) Whether by business/marketing or governments, agreed

You're an outlier. I can safely say this doesn't apply to the majority of the population.

And therefor they don't deserve to ride the bus?

If they want to use an ad-hoc bus that runs exactly where people request it in real time, then YES. They should not expect it to work for them.

I'd [OC] rather ride a predictable train/subway... but the density / bureaucracy of most American jurisdictions keeps this to a few limited megacities (I have lived in the SFBay & NYC, both; won't go back).

Also, can't the bus system have a kiosk/terminal at certain locations? Can't there be a coin/bill acceptor on each block's single parking meter (e.g. Austin, Texas / UT campus meters)?

Recently I became a plaintiff (first time, small claims, no big deal); I was surprised to see that only pro se litigants can file paperwork with the court (i.e. lawyers MUST use the e-file system).

I attended medical school for one year, right before ACA/eRecords became a requirement... and this always seemed so invasive (e.g. sensitive/VIP psych documentation, PP).

Since when are lawmakers and public servants concerned with providing utility for only the majority of citizens? That would, in aggregate, alienate many people from various public services.

Lawmakers and public servants have ALWAYS been concerned with majorities.

I don't know where you get the idea that every single government program ever has to work for everyone - that's clearly not true and many useful programs are supposed to only serve a majority of people. Sewers are a great example of this.

Who does not use the sewage system?

Septic systems are used outside cities when no sewers are available. They're very common in the US.

Try requesting a special connection and extra treatment for your sewage.

> I can safely say this doesn't apply to the majority of the population.

That's a pretty bold claim, would love to see the data. The only thing I know that applies to the majority of the population is that they breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide, and even with that claim I am not 100% confident.

...see also: death & taxes (as many smarties have noted [1] [2]).

[1] Daniel Defoe

[2] Ben Franklin

you made the choices, deal with the consequences.

I find it amazing that people can be like "screw optimizing public services, saving the environment and make things more accessible for most people, I and some others don't like phones"

it's philosophically wrong to say "you need to buy a phone, give some company your personal information, and pay for connectivity on a recurring basis, simply to be able to use a public service"

As I only park downtown once per quarter (metered by a phone app), so far I've not been cited. When it does finally happen:

I plan to become plaintiff in my third civil suit against a mid-sized US city (this one: for requiring cell phone / app to park). I know this sounds petty AF, but I have plenty of free time to help correct this philosophical setback [app parking] with precedent. Dare I say to consider this `moral imperative` =D

During a civil action approximately two years ago (in a state Chancery Court), I had to sign an affadavid that "I don't use/have email" ... because Judge didn't believe me (a form `REQUIRED` it)!

I've filed most my court briefs using a typewriter, which is conversation-inducing (to say the least). As a pro se litigant, the courts are still required to accept paper copies =P

that is truly fighting the good fight :) good on you.

a: Then get one. Virtually everyone has a phone.

b: Then get someone nearby to help you, or improve phone accessibility.

c: Tough luck. You made your decision, now live with it.

d: I highly doubt this. Phones are basically free - and I'm not just talking about budget, cheap-o phones. You can find an iPhone X for $100! People literally give them away sometimes!

e: That's fine, the Uber app works on some pretty darn old phones.

f: See (e).

g: Installing a third-party app to use a third-party service is pretty uncontroversial.

h: The ADA requires this from transit providers. If you are so disabled that a phone or desktop or whatever can't be used, you probably are not making your own travel arrangements.

i: Then you should not be purchasing things online at all, or with a credit card.

j-n: So... you go a day or two without a phone, replace it, and then things work again.

o: Hopefully not if anyone is making money off them!

p: Would you call a taxi in a hurricane and be surprised when it doesn't reach you?

I realize that HN HATES the idea that things sometimes require phones. Unfortunately, sometimes things are only possible with phones for reasons that have almost nothing to do with profit.

If you choose to not have a phone, you can still take the bus. You can still call taxi dispatch on a landline. You just can't do this stuff conveniently, which seems like a fair tradeoff to me.

I highly recommend you volunteer at a soup kitchen some day.

I do! That's how I know plenty of homeless people have phones. There's a disconnect between how people think smartphone ownership works on this site and how it actually works.

> j-n: So... you go a day or two without a phone, replace it, and then things work again.

Which still is an option right now, where a lot of things haven't yet been app-ified, but if you follow "Why should we handicap new, shiny things to make them usable without a phone?" to the maximum, things could end up rather difficult in the future. Like if you've been commuting by public transport and public transport is no longer accessible without a smartphone, how would you continue going to work until the new phone arrives?

Here in Germany it's fairly common for kids aged perhaps six or seven and up to take public transport by themselves. They might have a dumb phone or occasionally a smart watch, but I rarely see them with their own smart phones.

One of the most important principles of a public transport system should be that it's accessible to all in a lowest-common-denominator sort of way. Anything beyond that is also good to have, but if you don't have that basic level of accessibility, then it's not really a public transport system, it's a luxury transport system. And there are already plenty of luxury transport systems around.

Also, my last phone died on me fairly often, I don't think it's nearly as unusual as event as you're making it out to be.

And yet, nearly everything in Germany requires a stable physical address. Meanwhile, the state of the housing market is such that it's hard to get one.

What is your point? For many purposes, a homeless shelter can be used as a physical address for citizens in need.

What about the significant number of homeless people who don't want to live in a shelter?

Or can't, because they're not homeless?

I don't really get the relation between your comment and mine, I'm sorry. You don't need an address to use the public transport in Germany, for example.

"Furthermore, it's actively harmful to send your kids out into the world without the kinds of modern tools that would make them safer and more independent."

Interesting. I think there's a balance to be had here. Making our kids "too safe" I think may lead to a lack of resilience. I'll certainly be teaching my kid how to read a map (orienteering), and I suspect the sense of autonomy and self-reliance they'll get from knowing they can get from A to B without needing GPS will be a very good thing.

That said, we probably will get them a dumbphone to put in the bottom of their bag for if they really get stuck. I have no plan to have tracking etc. though. No way.

If I damage my phone or it gets stolen I have to walk home because the dystopian iOS/Android with SIM that requires ID ecosystem here won't actually allow me to simply use other computers I might still have access to so I'd have to equip my children with 2 devices and 2 SIMs in addition to cash, a debit card and an ID card to show that they're entitled to use their bus ticket.

These are incredibly user unfriendly locked gardens that are often adding gatekeeping to services that used to be ubiquitiously available, even in non-totalitarian systems, because suddenly you might need a bank account, an address, a government issued ID, a SIM card and a $100+ device that runs the approved stack just to take the bus.

> One immediate problem that comes to mind is that you need a smartphone to take public transit.

In China, Korea and other places, a smartphone is already the required entrance ticket to public life.

It's a little bit like faulting sidewalks for assuming footwear.

In China in particular a smartphone is the primary means to interact with restaurant menus, place orders, and pay for many things. Rentable battery packs are also pretty ubiquitous.

I once asked an in-law what happens if your phone completely runs out of food and you're hungry. He (jokingly) replied "no phone, no eat".

I didn't get the impression this was totally replacing static routes. Seemed to be augmenting it. But also, while your concerns are valid, I don't think they are large enough to not try these things.

In my experience, on a public bus there is reasonable chance of getting a working USB A socket. But as a private business, it's not a complete replacement of the public bus system, however apps are used by people already to book on-the-fly cheap group taxi trips in Shanghai.

For good or ill, most teens do have a smartphone on them, and even kids are often seen with smartwatches that have tracking, and probably WeChat, and every mall I've been to sells them. On the Shanghai bus and metro, people often use a Shanghai public transport card to pay, they do accept old fashioned cash though too. Powerbank rental networks are common on the street and non-returns default to purchases (~$14–$28 USD). Malls, and the Metro often has power available for free.

> if there's a teen without a smartphone

I live in Shanghai. Many if not all kids have smart watches with payment apps.

These examples are all easily solved.

I.e. replace the bus stops with terminals/kiosks which give you full service, potentially another in the middle of the bus.

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