Reviving a modular cargo bike design from the 1930s
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core77.com
This thing is not for Le Tour and you don't go fast on it and you don't go up giant hills on it. That makes a lot of the concerns here go out the window.
These types of bikes shaped objects often have all kinds of issues with trying to use bike parts designed for standard bikes on something that is very different. Issues with needing enormous chains, huge cable runs, etc.. when designers try things like this they are worrying about issues like that more than whether you can climb a mountain on it or stuff it into a corner at high speed without going out of control.
The thing with these is the cost to design & manufacture components that need to be different than normal bikes can be astronomical, so anything they can do to design the frame to use normal components in a normal/non-compromised way pays off in a huge way.
The ideas behind this aren't that different than the Cruzbike being front wheel drive to get rid of a lot of the component/drivetrain issues that recumbent bikes are famous for.
Lots of Americans in the comments is probably why, plus the Hacker News tendency toward armchair expertise.
The American grid system tends to produce hills that are unmanageable on a town or cargo bike, so bicycles are a fitness/enthusiast thing. And US cities are much more spread out, too. In more walkable European cities, these bikes make a lot of sense.
There is much to criticise but there is so much to like. The sprawl of US cities was not a problem for me, it was a lot easier and less stressful on US roads than what we get in the UK. The shoulders on most US roads are defacto cycle lanes, which I really liked since a good speed could be maintained.
As a British observer, I can't help but laugh at how everything in the US is bigger. I do my grocery shopping by bicycle and I am the only person in the supermarket carrying 30kgs of stuff up a very steep hill. Everyone else drives. My bike is a normal one, but I feel that, if I was American, then I would be compelled to have some special needs bike, either a cargo bike or electric, to 'haul' even more stuff.
Everything just has to be bigger!!!
The book of excuses for not cycling is massive in America, but, I have never been to a better place for utility cycling. The whole place is really well set up for utility cycling, you just have to see it that way.
Fitness cycling is a high status pursuit, much like those silly games like tennis that were invented just to show how high status you are. Golf is the classic, so much arable land not under the plough is a true flex of wealth.
Fitness cycling shows that you are not working class, that you have the resources to not work. Utility cycling is low status, it shows you can't afford a car or you have been banned.
With utility cycling there is always a reason for the ride, it is not out of choice, if you don't do the ride, there will be consequences such as not having a job or having no food in. Yet there was a time before the car when all cycling was for utility reasons.
Now what "unmanageable" means can differ quite a lot by person. Like some people would call some of the streets in Lisbon "unmanageable" by walking ;)
But then in both cases it only affects part of the city and throw in a E-Bike and thinks are often quite fine.
Anyway the point is, the bike from the article seems quite far away from a general purpose cargo bike. But for places where it fit its niche it probably shines.
Right now, there is only one multi-geared commercially available unicycle hub, and it only has 2 gears, and costs $1500 (Schlumpf drive). As for ebike motors that can be coaxial with pedals, as far as I know 2 have ever been made, by myself and by Justin @ ebikes.ca.
The entire unicycle community would be thrilled if they actually built this because then we could buy these hubs. But I would be very surprised to see this launch with a unique hub, instead of a cruzbike-like hub.
The Kwiggle folding bike in Germany[1] took over manufacturing of the Schlumpf drive in 2023[2] and uses it for their 6-speed option. It's in the bottom bracket and shifts by hitting the axle left/right with the heels. (costs ~€2000 and surely the front gear is not three quarters of that?).
[1] https://www.kwigglebike.com/en_US/
[2] https://www.drive-mobility.com/en "We, KwiggleBike GmbH, have been managing the business of Haberstock Mobility GmbH since 01.04.2024. We have been manufacturing all Schlumpfdrives since mid-2023"
I'm sure it doesn't cost $1500 to produce, that's just the cost to consumers. My point wasn't that it's ridiculously expensive (which it is), but that this seems like a really high hurdle to produce the cyclauto; no other company is currently producing the unicycle version, and even if they can manufacture them for, say $500, that's still astronomical compared to if they used the cruzbike model.
Here's the original: http://youtube.com/watch?v=RuPwRQOUhl4
Here's the reimagined modern version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA7qGYNFuY0
In both cases, the rider effectively sits atop of where the handlebars would be on a traditional trike. You can see in the first video the lads have a hard time keeping all wheels on the ground.
One notable difference between the new model and the old is that they seem to have changed the geometry of the frame so that the driver doesn't lean into the turn (the turning wheel stays upright). They don't demonstrate it in motion very well, but that kind of turn action will tend to throw the rider "out" of the turn, making the trike fall over opposite of the direction of the turn. The old version tends to fall "into" the turn.
I can't think of many advantages to this design, other than the driving unit and cargo are modular. Even then, the rider would not be able to travel without the cargo portion.
Trikes are tricky, they don't go very fast, they don't turn well, and they're wider than most other pedal-powered vehicles, making them hard to use on existing cycle infrastructure.
Basically when you turn your trike turns into a bike.
The fun bit is that on three wheels it steers like a car, but on two wheels it steers like a bicycle.
Do you (or anyone I guess) happen to know why? Low speed differential non-drive axles are not that complex, and would sermingly help a lot.
Perhaps in the US and western Europe, but tricycle tuk-tuks and cycle rickshaws are extremely common in other parts of the world.
I can easily get mine on two wheels if I take a sharp, fast, turn - but after you do it once you learn the limits and it's a very stable bike.
Two very common models are:
Durch cargo trikes are generally assumed safer than their two-wheeled alternatives here.
I've ridden a few trikes like you'd use for a small food stand and they aren't so bad to drive around. Would I take one mountain biking or on a hill climb? No, but that's beside the point. I also don't use my phone for all my CAD work.
And you really have to push the handle bars, for steering. Again, very different to a two-wheeler.
Can you explain the mechanics behind that? When turning left, wouldn't the bike be at risk of tipping to the right? Wouldn't leaning to the right make that worse?
That same frame roll/tip on a trike causes the right wheel to leave the ground. In order to counter act that, and essentially prevent the frame from rolling/tipping at all in the turn, is to move your weight to the right so that wheel stays grounded.
If you really push and try you can get the left wheel up on a left turn but it’s more effort than popping a wheelie on a two wheel bike. It’s hard to do on accident.
I would guess it has to do with the direction of force changing, the left and rear tires getting closer and the right and rear tire distance getting farther and what that implies regarding the distance each wheel needs to travel in the turn.
Edit: maybe tilt is a better word than roll and tip, basically putting the frame less upright is what I mean by that
FYI: I have both and the first time I drove my sidecar I ended up in a hedge :D
A good overview of the physics and how to ride these is the yellow book from Ural: http://welcome-ural.ru/documents/HowToRideUral.pdf
>Since sidecar outfits are not symmetrical, the technique for left turns is somewhat different from right turns. The outfit won't lean into the turn like a "solo" bike, but instead rolls slightly towards the outside of the turn like an automobile. The sidecar driver compensates by leaning body weight towards the turn and by applying extra force to the handlebars.
The only "trike-like" bicycles I see are used by elderly people, everything for cargo/kids is either two wheels or three with two wheels in front.
And yes - it can be quite the challenge. And people sees it as a god given right. The same rights as people who have their essential 4 bicycles.
Some of the same people who find it too cumbersome to use the bicycle storagespace/garage commonly found in basements. It can be a challenge indeed.
The basement parking is very common but rarely cater for the cargo bikes so they need to reside in the courtyards.
In some neighborhoods they have converted some of the street parkering spaces from cars to bicycle racks.
At Ikea and shopping malls they usually have dedicated parking for the cargo bikes.
There’s also tricycles which can lean into a corner which makes them similarly agile as two-wheeled bikes. They’re still wider, though.
Trikes are certainly not for long distances and a sporty style, but as a short distance cargo/kids hauler, they’re cheap, reliable and effective. I know quite a few people Who are happy with them.
I had a conventional tricycle too, don't recall ever falling over on it, though it could get tippy. You learned to lean to offset that.
They really don't make sense in motorcycles, A large part of the point of a motorcycle is that you are willing to give up a lot of comfort and safety in exchange for having a very small nimble personal transport. Nothing wrong with this tradeoff, but why would want a vehicle that takes up the same amount of space as a car that gives you the safety and comfort value of a motorcycle?
Cargo/passenger trikes are growing in popularity here where I live in London. I see probably a dozen a day which are an even mix of people ferrying kids about in a Danish/Dutch style "bakfiets" thing (you seem to be able to get 1-4 small people in the front of one of these depending on how picky they are about being squashed in) and cargo/parcel delivery which seem to be more modernized designs anecdotally. Whereas the model for a courier company used to be a person on a bicycle or motorbike doing one delivery at a time it seems more and more to be shifting to a person on a cargo bike doing multiple related deliveries in an area, and somewhat competing with traditional logistics just with a faster turnaround. The hook for parents seems to be if you have more than one kid it's still possible to use a bike to get around rather than a car (which is a very inconvenient mode of transport within London generally) and it's much faster and with bigger range compared with trying to get your offspring to walk (which might not even be possible for any kind of reasonable distance depending on age).
The advantage to these designs is that you have a bicycle that can carry cargo. Having decided that is the criterion you want to hit, having a modular version may well be beneficial.
The disadvantage you cite (that the driver can't lean) really doesn't factor too much into this use case because they aren't trying to travel at speed. Urban settings have much more stop-start movement in straight lines than cornering, and if you think about a parent with kids in the front of a bike they probably aren't trying to go super fast because they want to know they can definitely brake fast if the need arises.
I've pedaled around on a couple variations of this design. Like everyone who had never ridden one but saw it on the internet, I also confidently imagined it would violently hurl me to the ground at the slightest provocation. I was wrong, which strangely seems to be a pattern for confident opinions I've formed based on things I've only seen on the internet. Having not been for a ride on this particular iteration, I will not post confident opinions about it on the internet.
The best (granted, of two...) version I've tried was semi-recumbent, with a standard geartrain and flevobike-style steering. The steering was a little weird at first, but I quickly figured out how to fully steer it hands free. Fully unloaded it was possible to tip it with hard front braking while turning, if you pitched your body weight into the effort. Loaded, it was absolutely nailed to the ground. You're just a mule winching a load down the road at that point. Sometimes it's fun to be a mule, piloting a weird bike-cart.
It turns out everyone flamewarring about stability on the internet forgot to get mad about drive wheel traction limits when pulling a load uphill. Which for me was a loading consideration rather than a problem. The underseat steering was brilliant for reasons I'd never thought about. But don't take my word for it, ride one and decide for yourself.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130309080557/http://hpm.catore...
Then, annually they have a fun cargo-bike race called "Svajerløb" [0]
The event is based on traditional races that took place between the 1930s and 1960s. In the race, riders typically complete four laps - the first lap ridden with an empty cargo bike, then stopping to load up their bikes with cargo before completing three more laps with the full load. [1]
It's super fun.
[0] https://www.facebook.com/Svajerloeb/
[1] https://copenhagenize.com/2017/10/arrange-svajerlb-cargo-bik...
But recently a coffee bike has been turning up here in Malmö with a classic 50s design just like the Cycleauto one, but the wheel is not mounted under the rider.
https://gastro-bike.com/en/coffee-bike/ This is not it but it's close. The one we have here is more of a rounded 50s design on the carriage. I don't have any pics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAaVXKBamd0
You can even hook up a trailer to it for even more cargo.
Or, when transporting kids, you want to be able to see them, talk with them, keep an eye on them. I have cycled over 30,000 Kilometers in and around Amsterdam on various bikes - and written many different posts on it: https://willem.com/blog/bike/ (including on cargo bikes like Babboe)
I'm glad I live somewhere I can't even fathom this happening.
For people questioning the viability of trikes, here is what the Dutch postal service uses:
https://www.bikeshift.com/nl/assets/components/phpthumbof/ca...
And this is ehat they are testing for future: https://fulpra.com/
That front part looks more like a moped or light motorcycle than a bike. But with that kind of load on the back I suppose it makes sense.
Obligatory Top Gear link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQh56geU0X8
“You may remember: I drove it (the Reliant Robin) around Sheffield and it kept falling over. Well now’s the time to come clean. A normal Reliant Robin will not roll unless a drunken rugby team is on hand. Or its windy. But in a headlong drive to amuse and entertain, I’d asked the backroom boys to play around with the differential so that the poor thing rolled over every time I turned the steering wheel”
We now ride a two wheeled urban arrow. Three wheelers seem incredibly unstable except perhaps for ones with independently pivoting wheels like the babboe carve
I really can’t tell, are you referring to an F-350 or a cargo bike?
Perhaps I should add to this that they're actually super stable at slow speeds, compared to two-wheelers, especially when loaded. My wife prefers a cargo bike to her usual non-cargo bike, I think for this very reason.
Babboe is a rather budget brand that uses a single round lower tube under the box. Compare that with the frame of an urban arrow or a R&M load that use multiple tubes and a proper stiff platform under the box. Even if an Urban Arrow Frame would crack, it would bend out of shape instead of failing catastrophically like the Babboe did.
But I take your point -- I've ridden a unicycle extensively, but never a wheelie.
These sorts of issues plague a lot of bike designs where they try to do something radically different. The reason why the derailleur and chains are used so often is because they are relatively cheap, work well and require maybe a few cheap tools to remove/refit parts (I have done this myself many times).
Also as for the modular design. Why would I care about a modular design if I wanted something like this. You aren't going to be a courier one day and then suddenly running Gelato stand the next.
I have a thought like this regarding my compute needs in my house all the time, and then another need pops up, and I'm so glad I can wrangle an existing expensive piece of kit to also cover the new need. Just between the Gelato stand and personal item transport could be one such need
This is what I argue against, that given it's purpose, a need to switch is important. The use case for hauling things has been taken up by other things, but the use case for detachable loads hasn't gone anywhere where loads need to be hauled.
>Farming isn't comparable and doesn't have the same needs
Farming needs wheeled vehicles to transport heavy materials, I think it's exactly comparable.
No because the farmer has to do many different things with the same piece of equipment. The number of people doing a courier job on a bicycle and then running a Gelato stand are almost nobody.
If I wanted to tow something, I wouldn't use a bicycle anyway. I am not even that convinced by existing cargo bikes tbh and this is coming from someone that built their own bicycles for 20 years. I would use my land rover.
Internally geared hubs are a mature technology and really require even less maintenance than a chain/derailleur combo, being completely enclosed. Also, not every hub needs to be a fancy Rohloff, so even if it needs to be replaced in toto, it's not bank-breaking.
Contrast that to chain, cassette and the entire wheel is probably cost less than a hub. A new chain and cassette can be found at any bike shop and they are inexpensive. The maintenance concerns regarding chains are derailleurs are vastly overstated by the proponents of such hubs.
I have built and repaired my own bicycles since I was a kid. I've found that anything remotely fancy becomes a PITA. There is a reason why most bicycles use Shimano or Shimano compatible kit, it is cheap, available anywhere and reliable.
I bet it also feels alien to turn a steering wheel with your feet on bike pedals.
Much respect to the mad lad slowing his descent in flipflops, by the way.
However, it also looks like these are all renderings. It would be interesting to see a live demo.
The one actual photo looks quite different from the renderings.
I’ve ended up with some electronic road SRAM which is seriously quick in comparison (except for the slow rider), but do miss the smooth internal hub and the stationary gear changes.
There's a lot of friction in hub gears (at least the one I rode a decade ago), and fixing them is generally impractical.
They've been barely viable the whole time. Sturmey Archer are the last maker in business; they went bankrupt a couple of decades back and for some years there was serious concern that manufacturing would never resume.
You should definitely put a repairable Gouach e-bike battery on it haha https://gouach.com
I have an e-assist on mine, so I can absolutely outrun anyone menacing, and biking so much gets you in healthy enough shape that most folks think, "Nah, I'll wait for an easier target." And if that didn't do the trick, pepper spray is a reasonable option.
People on foot are really, really not the worry. Mindless drivers who think they are invincible so they don't pay attention to their environment are FAR more dangerous.
This idea is absurdly underbaked…other commenters mentioned that it’s going to flip, and it is. Not to mention that no bike shop in the world will know how to work on these things.
There’s lots of reasons that this design died in the 1930’s after a short run.
But…so you know I’m a reasonable guy despite my blithering criticism…I love weird alternative vehicles and I hope that version two of this is a massive success because this world needs more tiny vehicles and fewer 8’ tall Ford F-150’s.
Best of luck!
Assuming the rear is loaded with cargo, you'd have a low center of gravity over two wheels. To tip over, one of the rear wheels would need to come up, but that's where most of the weight is.
And I suspect the engineers who built this probably didn't just completely miss "oh wait, what if it tips over!?" Unless you've a) got some experience with this domain and b) got some experience with this bike, I don't know how you could know this bike is going to flip over.
But you’re probably right overall…if the attachments are expected to be substantially heavier than I was initially thinking, and if the bike were designed to go pretty slow, it’d be ok.
The penny-farthing solved this problem by having a very large wheel.
A bike that is a 1:1 'fixie' would indeed struggle with hills like the OP suggests. However, this bike has a secret hub within the wheel that does gearing, so you have (iirc) 3 ratios you can use to get up to speed or climb hills.
It was not direct drive.
There’s a tricked out one in my ‘hood (Vienna) that has electric assist. I guess that’d be practical for a daily ride …
> places the rider directly above the front wheel. They pedal this wheel directly; there's no chain, reducing maintenance needs. A three-speed gearbox in the hub makes starting easier.
> An additional benefit to the two-piece frame is that the bike can be broken down for transport, allowing the user "to load it into a trunk for easy transport from point A to point B."
> Lastly, the company says the shorter wheelbase of their arrangement provides a tighter turning radius, making the bike easier to maneuver in urban environments.