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Comment by elif | Hacker News Reader

There are neurogenic, anti-tumor, and anti-inflammatory properties and no direct chemical addiction mechanisms as present in nicotine.

Additionally your statement about "any kind of smoke" while kind of true does not recognize the disproportionate concentration of carcinogens specific to cigarette smoke.

It also misses the disclaimer that nearly as many cannabis users vape and consume edibles (roughly 70%) as do smoke (only 79%) which is certainly better than smoke, even before you add the benefits of water filtration and cooling common for marijuana users.

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You’re talking about different things. The study and the topic at hand is not addiction or cancer, it’s COPD, emphysema, and lung volume.

Any smoke (anything hot, even steam) will cause lung damage. They’re incredibly fragile organs. (biochemist)

I hear you, but coming from someone that spent about 20 years of his life smoking 4-8 joints per day, who quit smoking to use precise equipment to make filtered vapor at roughly ambient air temperature for the last 5 years, and also who just spent 2 years abstaining completely, you are comparing apples and lasagna.

> There are neurogenic, anti-tumor, and anti-inflammatory properties and no direct chemical addiction mechanisms as present in nicotine.

Huh? Nicotine ain't addictive either. See https://gwern.net/nicotine for more than you wanted to know.

Just don't smoke. Get your fix (whether nicotine or marijuana) in other ways. Vape or chew gum or use edibles or stick on a nicotine plaster, etc.

Nicotine is absolutely addictive. Ask anyone who uses an e-cigarette. Vape liquids typically do not contain MAOIs yet are quite difficult to get off - less than smoking though, likely due to the longer activation duration.

Nicotine being the addictive part is also why many smokers are successfully able to make the switch to e-cigarettes.

Please see the link. Especially this section https://gwern.net/nicotine#addictiveness

Nicotine by itself is at most very lightly addictive.

> Nicotine being the addictive part is also why many smokers are successfully able to make the switch to e-cigarettes.

I don't think we can draw that conclusion. Just because something helps you get over an addiction doesn't mean it's the addictive part.

Compare and contrast the absolute ineffectiveness of nicotine plasters for getting people off their cigarette habit. (Even though they are a great nicotine delivery mechanism otherwise.)

Similarly, I don't think anyone ever got addicted to nicotine plasters.

I did and while I like Gwern's writing, I think in this case it's plain wrong. I say this as a smoker who switched to e-cigarettes for a few years and then quit cold turkey. Switching was easy. The first 72 hours of quitting was a nightmare.

I think it's horrible to tell people nicotine is not addictive. Quitting is very difficult.

A quick Google offers plenty of alternative study results.

I personally know people who were addicted to nicotine patches. One reason they are likely not as addictive as smoking is because they take much longer to reach noticeable concentrations in your bloodstream. Vaping also takes longer than smoking but not nearly as long as patches.

Compare this to oral vs IV drug use.

Edit: I will add that while I do strongly believe nicotine is addictive, I also believe smoking is more addictive and that it is primarily all the other chemicals in tobacco smoke that cause most physical harm to the body.

> I did and while I like Gwern's writing, I think in this case it's plain wrong. I say this as a smoker who switched to e-cigarettes for a few years and then quit cold turkey. Switching was easy. The first 72 hours of quitting was a nightmare.

Are you implying that by smoking I caused irreversible changes to my brain that meant I was now capable of being addicted to the pure nicotine in the ecig that I switched to? I switched entirely to ecigs for two years before quitting.

My brother is still addicted to his ecig despite numerous attempts to titrate down.

> Are you implying that by smoking I caused irreversible changes to my brain

Yes. Once an addict, always an addict. ('Irreversible changes to a brain' are quite common. You remember having smoked, for example...) More importantly, this was something emphasized before, and so it is irrelevant to bring it up as a supposed counterexample.

While permanent changes to a brain are a thing, I don't think being addicted to smoking means you are addicted to drinking so I don't follow the "logic." You're stating that nicotine is not addictive unless you were previously addicted to nicotine in the presence of MAOIs, in which case nicotine on its own is addictive now?

I fail to understand how nicotine on its own would satisfy an addictive craving created by a different chemical or combination of chemicals, if it isn't addictive itself.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean about a previously emphasized counterexample either. Could you elaborate?

> I fail to understand how nicotine on its own would satisfy an addictive craving created by a different chemical or combination of chemicals, if it isn't addictive itself.

It's pretty hard to get addicted to nicotine patches, if you never smoked.

I suspect that if I took up nicotine patches now, years after quitting nicotine (e-cigs), it would be similarly difficult - but not impossible - to get addicted.

I don't see this as an argument that nicotine is not addictive - just that different routes of administration are more or less addictive, similar to IV vs. oral opiate use.

as a non smoker, I followed Gwern's micro dosing experiments with nicotine. Small 0.5mg 1/2 tablet doses when doing a task I wanted to reinforce.

Then I found myself taking a one or two of these 1mg tablets during the day when driving as I want to increase good habits when driving. Then habitually whenever I felt like it, sometimes with a coffee and a book. They were the weakest mg you could get, and there was no direct feeling of their effect. I did feel increasing anxiety which lead to physical symptoms during this time, but the tablets didn't seem to make any direct effect on the anxiety, I didn't take the nicotine to calm down and I didn't connect the two together (its only now writing this comment that I'm thinking they may be connected)

So it was definitely addicting, however, when the box ran out, stopping seemed to be instantaneous and painless. I did quit because I realised I wasnt using it as I wanted to initially and it was becoming a habit. I do remember a couple of times looking for the tablets, checking to see if there wasn't some in the car. mild. The feeling of anxiety is gone now too.

So I'm not sure if I would say I was addicted, but maybe I was. It was certainly habit forming!

When you say 'tablet doses', did you mean you swallowed them?

Nicotine isn't really absorbed well that way. That's also why Gwern's self experiment didn't really work.

In any case, yes, stimulants can cause anxiety in people. (Weirdly, they can also help with anxiety. The brain is weird.)

Nicotine tablets probably refer to lozenges taken sublingually.

OK! Yes, that route works.

As someone who smoked, vaped and quit - nicotine is extremely addictive. Like, by far the most addictive substance I have ever used.

When you abstain from nicotine, you will get physical withdrawal symptoms. Nausea, headaches, heart racing, that type of thing. But you'll also get psychological symptoms - paranoia, anxiety, irritability.

I know for a fact it's the nicotine because:

1. Vaping contains a lot of nicotine, too, and it satisfies the craving.

2. You can actually feel the nicotine hitting your blood when you relapse.

3. Nicotine patches remove the withdrawal symptoms.

And yet, nicotine patches do not cause any addiction.

According to who? Certainly going from a 21 mg patch to nothing will give you withdrawal - I know because I tried it.

Nicotine patches aren't perfect, and the reason they might be less addicting is because there's no hit. It's a constant stream of nicotine which ends up feeling like no nicotine at all. Instead, it feels like it's just preventing the affects of a lack of nicotine, i.e. it's inhibiting withdrawal. But it's not giving you the effects of nicotine.

Like when you smoke a cigarette you immediately feel relaxed and happy and it's a very sudden effect. But with nicotine patches since there's no curves you don't get that.

> Instead, it feels like it's just preventing the affects of a lack of nicotine, i.e. it's inhibiting withdrawal. But it's not giving you the effects of nicotine.

Nope. I never smoked, but tried patches, and I certainly felt the effects. (And I didn't have any withdrawal that I needed to inhibit.) My non-smoking friends who tried had the same experience.

Okay sure, for you, someone who didn't smoke and therefore did not become accustomed (tolerant?) to the immediate effects of a nicotine hit.

But, as a cessation tool, which is what they are, this has been my experience.

And, I would be hesitant about using nicotine patches or something like Zyn recreationally. Nicotine, even by itself, is harmful to the cardiovascular system over a long period of time.

Where are the long time studies on vaping? I regularly read news about vaping with new findings on it being unhealthy... Not gonna defend smoking but also not gonna defend any other loser behavior regarding drugs.

What do you think is the harm of vapor that, for instance, begins it's life at 163 degrees, is filtered for particulates through water, and then cooled by flowing through ice and can be as low as 25 degrees depending only on breath speed?

I'm not saying it's nothing but I'm also not going to pretend it's any worse than, say, living in a wildfire state.

Are you saying that is comparable to a 800 degree ember 4 inches from your mouth?

> not gonna defend any other loser behavior regarding drugs

Is that how you feel about drinking coffee and wine as well, or does it only apply to some other drugs? Is it the same for prescription drugs?

Coffee isn't nearly as self destructive as smoking or marijuana. Moderation is key for everything. Unfortunately the alcoholics I know and the weed addicts aren't the biggest fans of moderation. I lost friends to both so yea. Also I can't make people passively consume coffee. People who smoke weed are often extremely inconsiderate on who they affect with that.

In your mind, is every person who drinks an alcoholic? Is every person who consumes cannabis an addict?

I lost my dad to alcohol and tobacco. The biggest cannabis users in college would often (not aleays) drop out of school. So I am not blind to the downsides of these drugs.

However, I also recognize that there are a zillion people out there that drink alcohol or consume cannabis in moderation, and feel no desire to lump them all into a category of "losers", nor treat them with contempt or disrespect. To each their own.

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