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Comment by atoav | Hacker News Reader

Interestingly enough the US seems to have between 1.5 and 6 times more of such cases than Europe (the numbers I found are a little bit fuzzy and use probably different methodology when collected, so this could well be an entirely statistical phenomenom).

I was curious, because I (living in central Europe) could not think of a single case of identity theft in my social circles or a prominent case I ever heard of.

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The US does identity verification by asking for a driver's license (which has no chip or biometric data) and possibly a series of questions about your past drawn from public data. All of these credentials are laughably easy to spoof. Compare this to Europe, where every resident has an eID containing a keypair and X.509 certificate signed by the government containing their personal details. It is trivial to check the validity of these cards and nearly impossible to forge without subverting either the national PKI or printing apparatus

The security around the facilities which make the documents is also significant. Getting the printing apparatus is no small feat.

    > Compare this to Europe, where every resident has an eID containing a keypair and X.509 certificate signed by the government containing their personal details.

Woah. First, on HN I keep seeing this term "Europe". Europe is 50 countries. Please try to be more specific. Did you mean EU? If yes, then my question: Really? All 27 EU nations support and actually use this identity programme with financial institutions? I never heard about it. And, just saying that it exists isn't enough. Do normies use it (like your parents & grandparents)?

It's an EU thing. Yes, normies do use it, as it is a chip embedded in your personal ID card and your passport. You hand your ID to an officer, they read the chip data and verify the signature. You don't have to know anything about how it works. It also contains biometrical data (your fingerprints, etc).

Implementation of eIDAS is still in progress. It's not even mandatory for every citizen to haven an eID until end of 2026. And it's also not used yet everywhere for everything. But it's gradually growing.

The first time I had a chance to use was just some months ago, when I could activate a SIM-card online through and my smartphone reading out my ID-card via NFC. I pay daily via NFC, but it's the first time ever I had to use the chip in my ID-Card, despite it having one for 15 years now. Laws and regulations are good in theory, but reality can be often quite a bit different.

Fingerprints are collected only from criminals or people who visit US. Why did Europeans agree to being treated like criminals or tourists I don't understand.

>Fingerprints are collected only from criminals or people who visit US. Why did Europeans agree to being treated like criminals or tourists I don't understand.

Only if you assume that anyone who works for a SEC regulated company[0], applies for a California driver's license[1], current and former US Military personnel[2] healthcare workers, teachers, real estate agents, child care providers and others[3] are either "criminals" or "tourists."

If so, into which bucket would you place CA driver's license applicants? Criminals? How about US Military personnel? Tourists?

Please do elucidate.

[0] https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/17/240.17f-2

[1] https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-industry-services/occu...

[2] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1440f

[3] https://blog.certifixlivescan.com/state-by-state-guide-to-fi...

Yes the government wants to treat everyone as a possible criminal and collects fingerprints for this reason. There is absolutely no logical reason for collection of fingerprints for a driver's license. Collecting fingerprints doesn't make driving safer in any way. Making driving exam more difficult and having to take it more often would make driving safer, limiting the speed would make driving safer, but fingerprints wouldn't.

Driver's licenses serve as the primary form of identification in the US.

But you wouldn't know anything about that, would you Ivan, especially since many (most?) Americans don't have a passport.

Are your papers in order, Ivan? It would be a shame if you ended up in a Siberian gulag, eh?

Nobody, surprisingly, our regime doesn't require us to provide fingerprints yet (although that might change; our government loves to say "we just do the same thing all Western democratic governments do, so don't complain"). The punishment for not having valid "papers" is usually a fine (the fines for not having valid documentation related to military service were significantly increased recently for obvious reasons). Unless they close the border, I think we don't need to worry.

Also I always thought that it is weird, having to take driving exams to get an ID and calling an ID a "driver's license".

Fingerprints are only stored on the chip. Collection/retainment for other purposes is against the law.

That's just the first step to let people get used to giving away their biometric information and then change the laws.

It's currently being deployed across the european union[1], I think the 2026 target they gave it's a tad too unrealistic, wouldn't be surprised if we get major coverage not until 2030.

[1]https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/priorities-...

That target is for the new and improved version where you can use NFC to self-identify on the web. The old version (with a smart card inside, so only offline auth) was rolled out in Germany in 2010.

Can't remember if they ever released the 1st version either in Italy or France, a few days ago my septuagenarian mum got the NFC enabled one in Italy.

The iOS app is surprisingly decent. She could still request the old, paper-only id but this one could be also used to pay for local ordinances straight from her phone, and it's less cumbersome than the SPID-based[1] authentication.

[1]https://it-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/SPID?_x_tr_sl...

Don't know about the whole Europe (or EU) but I strongly suspect it is indeed (almost) everywhere. I'm Turkish and Turkey has it too. And yes, my mother uses it, and my grandparents used it when they were alive. You can't do anything government-related, open a bank account, or even visit a hospital without your government-issued ID card (which contains a chip). And a few decades ago, before the chips, there were other security measures tied to ID cards.

We don’t have a national ID system, just a single, poorly suited Social Security number that’s been overloaded to serve as our entire identity in the eyes of the state. These numbers are effectively public knowledge, thanks to private credit agencies created to fill the gap when banks failed at risk assessment. We could’ve replaced this broken setup decades ago, but there’s a vested political interest in ensuring federal programs fail, to justify further privatization and the dismantling of social services.

A proper national ID and strong privacy laws would be obvious policy wins, but that would require competent lawmakers.

In my lifetime, the most consequential federal legislation has been the DMCA (1998), the Patriot Act (2001), and Obamacare (2010), which effectively marked the end of meaningful legislative power and the handoff of governance to the executive branch.

It's a very similar situation in the UK, though the hostility towards National ID cards comes from the public not the government.

Apparently people associate it with the authoritarianism of 1984 even though mandatory ID existed in 1948 when the novel was written.

What about ID.me that irs.gov uses for tax-related matters? When I tried to get it once, it is pretty hard to get authenticated -- required 2+ gov't IDs, plus pic of yourself holding them. That should be pretty safe. Not good enough? (Overall: I agree. There is no concept of a national ID in the US, except a passport which huge numbers of people do not have.)

As I understand it, it’s mostly fundamentalist Christians blocking national IDs.

I'm not Christian and I don't want a federal ID. I don't even want a state ID but I will eventually be taken to prison if I continually get caught driving without one.

Coincidentally and/or anecdotally I've never had my identity stolen.

You’d be wrong. It’s coming from the same crowd that claims showing a driver’s license or some other form of ID in order to vote is racist.

The last big push for a secure national identity system was during the 90s as part of the negotiation on the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996. It was opposed by fundamentalist Christians then, but it was more vociferously opposed by civil libertarian groups like the ACLU and the EFF, Cato, as well as immigrant rights groups like La Raza.

I'd argue that the fundies have more political clout than those other groups combined.

Half of the house Democrats, not exactly a group known for kowtowing to religious fundamentalists, voted against improving the design of social security cards. If 16 of the 91 that voted against the McCollum amendment had flipped from Nay to Yea, this would be a solved problem.

Or at least a different problem.

Based on what?

We have at least two different national ID systems in the US: passports, and Real ID.

One of those two is as of last week or so required to board a flight in the USA.

> I was curious, because I (living in central Europe) could not think of a single case of identity theft in my social circles or a prominent case I ever heard of.

But there’re tons of scams involving stealing your personal id and security codes. It’s wide spread from Belgium to Estonia.

There's apparently no good way of doing this. Denmark have a system for identifying yourself online. It has a 2FA component, either an app on your phone, where you have to swipe or something (I don't use it) or a physical code generator. It should be basically impossible to break, except it's not, because people will get calls from "their bank" asking the to do the 2FA stuff. Basically any measure put in to prevent this is being circumvented by people believing that the bank, who barely wants to deal with customers, would actually call them up Thursday evening.

I think the current solution is to have users scan a QR code, if they are on a different device than the one with their authenticator app. I haven't hear of anyone with the hardware token being scammed though, but most of the people who have the hardware version, do so because we don't even trust an app on our phone.

But yes, there are PLENTY of cases of identity theft even in countries with electronic identification solutions.

One thing the US could do, but won't, is have an account registered with the federal and state governments. Any money coming from the government should ONLY go to that account and it changing it should require a thorough identity validation.

QR code is how mitid works. You scan and you swipe.

> identity theft

It is not identity theft. It is identity fraud.

Implying that you can lose your identity to someone is a way to shift blame from the banks or whatever entity being defrauded.

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